Noble Realms — Karma -The Lie

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-10T20:37:39Z

My view is if you "reap what you sow" and you talk about the "laws of attraction" you are in general terms refering to karma.

Your view to that "indebtedness" becomes your choice.

You can "work off the debt" or you can ask for or give forgivness.
You can offer thanks or your hurt.
You can offer your blessings or your curses.
You can relase or hold on to it(whatever it is).

I think this is some of what the Toltecs (and Christian writings) talk about with making assumptions or judgements and what Buddhists talk about when refering to "attachments".

So I don't view it as a trap...that you have to Pay for it/ work it off IS the trap.

As far as from life to life reincarnation, I guess that depends on if I believe in reincarnation. If I don't I only have this life to live and if I do, I still have this life to live, so either way it is the same.

Just my thoughts

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-10T15:47:41Z

The concept of karma as some kind of spiritual indebtedness is total and complete horseshit. You'll never break the cycle and begin to spiral out of the game as long as you feel compelled to pay back some imaginary spiritual debt. If you're still stuck believing in the lie of karma, simply take a look at the way indebtedness works on planet Earth. Its all a complete crock, and its only designed to keep us in ignorance of our true selves by embracing a sense of powerlessness and victim mentality.

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-10T03:04:18Z

thook wrote:

That being said, I think the amnesia is our choice to believe in the game.

Yeah, that's what I've been trying to figure out, what this "amnesia" thing is all about, and what exactly is going on in regards to incarnating here over and over again. Off topic, but it's been brought to my attention once before in a dream, but without any further explanations. Maybe the answers will come someday....

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-10T02:44:56Z

What's wrong with being a source of loosh? From having just read Robert Monroe's "Far Journeys", I think that it's our curiosity and sense of need that keeps us coming back to this existance...some spirits become completely lost in this realm, yet that's the inherent danger in coming to such a place. And this amnesia is something we accept prior to each incarnation. Even after death, we may feel we have debts to pay, or things to experience, "karma" if you will.
So suppose our existance is nothing more than to produce loosh. You can either do this happily, or not. It's really your choice, yet there is no true "escape" from this cycle while we're here. Anyways, what's wrong with being a producer? Get over your ego, we all have a place in the etheric food-chain. Does a cow feel robbed when a farmer takes her milk? From what I understand, it's produced as a result of feeling emotions.
So in light of this, what could you do to not produce loosh, to not fit in this cycle? Don't feel emotion. It's simple as that, yet if you truly wish to do this, you will lose your humanity in the process.

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-09T16:00:13Z

lyra wrote:

thook wrote:
Lyra, I found your account to be so insightful as to want to post it to another forum on this same topic. Without disclosing the source, would you mind if I did this?
Well, sure, but....it's not written that well! I just cranked that out last night and it still doesn't accurately convey the experience, but sure, if you want to repost it, that's cool. Higher self experiences are usually very telepathic with instantaneous info transfer, at least for me, and so it's hard to translate it into written words without losing something along the way.
Something I didn't mention in that post was that I could feel the mindset of the people involved in what I was seeing. Like village peasants, with that whole poverty/suffering vibe, and I could feel how they, as souls, believed that they needed to experience that....but they actually don't. The implications of that are far reaching. It's basically saying that "something" is tricking us into incarnating here...? Making us believe that we "need" this, when possibly we don't??? Think of how deeply rooted it is for many people to believe that they "need" incarnational experience.
It's quite possible "something" has given us amnesia so we won't remember what our other options are. Like something wants us trapped here, endlessly cycling forever and ever. A loosh farm.
That's kind of a cynical way of looking at things though, and I could be wrong. I think there's another piece to this puzzle, something I'm missing....

Thanks, Lyra. It was written well enough. Sometimes "off the cuff" is the most insighful...it is simple and unpretentious. It was a the broad picture thing I like about it. A complete
understanding without the need for intellectual enhancement. I've had those kind of glimpses before. Cuts through to the chase. Helps from getting lost in the nitty gritty details of what's true.

That being said, I think the amnesia is our choice to believe in the game. Nothing can be done without our consent, although a choice can be reinforced easily in a state of forgetfulness. Karma is the repercussions of that choice, or any choice. "Is this what you want? Then here ya go!" Sometimes it's not what we thought it would be....or is it? I don't remember exactly. Oops! Karma....:/

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-09T04:18:31Z

Maybe, all these people who are dying from starvation, war and disease are really teachers, showing us how their existance in such a state is a mockery of our way of life. Are you comfortable with this guilt? I know it's easy to respond "Well, I chose this life and they chose that life, so I really shouldn't be concerned with their choices...because they seem to be pretty stupid if they chose that life", but is such a cynical view one that you're actually comfortable living with? There will continue to be starving people, there will continue to be war, and there will continue to be disease as long as we do not learn from their lessons. They remind us of how ignorance clouds the mind, causing one to be apathetic, and how apathy leads to suffering. Are you comfortable living in a world of suffering, or will you try to go about and change it?
Karma is essentially lessons that we have imposed upon ourselves to not only teach ourselves, but to teach others simultaneously. While I don't agree with sacrificing yourself, one must respect those who have chosen that path, because they feel that through this method, they can teach us to become a more empathetic, a more positive, and a more unified person.

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-08T23:00:23Z

Mutant Mouse wrote:

Karma reeks of New Age crap that someone made up just to control others.
It doesn't make sense. According to the theory as I understand it, you are reincarnated to repay the evil you did in your past life.
What doesn't make any sense because
1). Almost everyone can't remember what happened in their past life. What would be the point of correcting mistakes I can't remember? Wouldn't it be better for me to remember them so I can learn from them?
2). Making mistakes is inevitable, so karma would be this neverending cycle. You're like a ping-pong ball, bounced from Earth to the afterlife over and over. I don't want a ping-pong ball life.

Agreed.

Rewards and punishments handed out for actions taken in previous lives has just as much validity as a non-christian being held responsible for the catholic concept of origional sin. When reduced to the base, it's nothing more than a control mechanism designed to keep the masses from looking to find their own truth, and to accept their lot - which is imposed. Please note that this is not my interpretation of what karma is.

In it's proper function, karma is something very similar to a take-responsibility-for-your-own-actions device. Looked at from another perspective, it ensures that those who are unable to assume the responsibility for their own limited perspective here will not be able to mess things up when they are granted the authority of a REAL life.

If you see what this "life" truly is, it may seem to be nothing more than a simple indicator of truth, since this life could be seen as a trial run for what you are willing do, what pressures you can resist, would prefer avoid, or will almost certainly wilt under. With this in mind, consider that there are many people who will say anything to ascend beyond this experience. With karma in play, those individuals will have to account for their actions, since they already choose them and the official record of their choice was what happened. No escape.

If someone could explain to me how further development can be achieved without the insertion of a similar system, I'm all ears.

-3G

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-08T14:00:06Z

We are both, the prisoner and the jailer. That is the nature of the duality of this universe. Without duality there would no cause & effect, no light & darkness no motion at all. Motion is a holographic illusion created by God to simulate the experience. The experience is created by the illusion of things in motion which in turn gives birth to the notion of cause and effect. When we truly realize motion is not real and that it is just light creating a holographic illusion we will cease to be individuals and finally join the Maker.

But, in the process of realization, do we maintain a certain level of individualism allowing us to accumulate the much needed knowledge to achieve Realization? If one believes in Karma then the answer must be yes. Yet, is Karma self imposed or dictated by a higher power from above not including the Higher Self? If self-realization is the avenue to finally understand how the illusion works, then karma must be self imposed but only by the Higher Self who has all the knowledge acquired through the many visitations to this human realm.

But, does the process ever stop? I think not! Galaxies die and are born every second. The Creator maintains this illusion because through the simulated motion He can experience Himself. If one cannot experience oneself one would cease to exist and everything would return to pure stillness.

These are my confused thoughts. Enjoy it!

Regards,

Lee

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-08T11:58:25Z

Starcat. all that you have said is true on one level of the illusion and reality. However, what i said is also true but it does not apply to this level as the natural system of what karma is supposed to be has been twisted beyond recognition and taken to benefit the leaders and "lord of karma" which actually would in reality be little more than library clerks of karma in reality. In that they have no power they only have a list of all things done incase you wish to check up on it. Rather small entities if you think about it. So the control system has taken a notion of what is real and twisted it to fit their benefits on this level.

So in reality there is karma and cause and effect, but in a system completely controlled by nefarious intelligences the effects and karma can be countered by them and a false reaction given so as to promote control. To use your business allegory.

The businessman knows how tha laws work in reality and knows that what he does it not truly legal, yet as he is in a self built system higher than those who work for him he can lead them to believe that what he does is supported by all the systems, infact, that he built the systems. Like an emperor or pharaho, he makes the sun rise and the eclipses arrive. Yet in reality he has only taken a system of numbers and machines and used it to fit his purpose.

So yes, in this level how karma is explained and how it is thought to work (punishment) Has absolutely nothing to do with how karma in reality is supposed to work. So as karma is understood in this conversation then i agree with you starcat. It is nothing more than a control system.

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-08T10:42:39Z

There most certainly " are " so called lords of karma which are part of the negative astral heriarchy. Its the sole purpose of these beings to exploit weaknesses when anyone shows signs of seeing thru the game. They work just like corporate hierarchies, steal energy the same way, lie the same way etc. They are responsible for most of the information in the new age that is keeping seekers in a holding pattern of feelgood half truths. Another of their specialties is teaching people denial. Denial was given to us by the Asuras and it works to hide that which is denied, so they hide themselves by getting people to deny their existence.....very clever.
Everything in our external reality has been set up to keep those who would protect the negative system in power over others.
This is part of the expose that people like Steve Gamble, John Lash, Stuart Wilde and others are working to enlighten people about. What I see in this thread on one angle is the ego defense of thoughtforms as it has conceived them. If causality worked like people have been sold that it does, we would not have the current imbalance and injustice we have in the world.
Just like in corporate structures, the rules only apply to minions, and " some " are above the law.
This is the reality of causality. Causal chains do not work even remotely as people suspect.
What appears as causality, and cause effect chains of events, is and has been heavily manipulated from the astral realms during our entire history. I have already given one clue as to where the apparent system is made out to seem plausible and " logical " as a feedback " mechanism that is designed to trap the beliefs of people who are becoming more aware on the path. Its designed to
stop spiritual progress and blind people to what should be obvious paradoxes.
The reference to children is to ones that have not been domesticated and as thus still retain their natural purity from the original realm. They can't be lied to, and although they may not be able to do anything about the lie, they will know it for a lie on inner levels and part of their being will remain unshaken which shows in the eyes.
This has been spoken about in detail by the Toltec Warrior Miguel Ruiz, and this point is being made for a purpose.
I advise the belief be shattered and allowed to dissolve or else burned up by the light of your own spirit. Its a heavy one with a heavy price to indulge.

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-07T23:40:13Z

Karma reeks of New Age crap that someone made up just to control others.

It doesn't make sense. According to the theory as I understand it, you are reincarnated to repay the evil you did in your past life.

What doesn't make any sense because

1). Almost everyone can't remember what happened in their past life. What would be the point of correcting mistakes I can't remember? Wouldn't it be better for me to remember them so I can learn from them?

2). Making mistakes is inevitable, so karma would be this neverending cycle. You're like a ping-pong ball, bounced from Earth to the afterlife over and over. I don't want a ping-pong ball life.

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-07T18:28:35Z

thook wrote:

Lyra, I found your account to be so insightful as to want to post it to another forum on this same topic. Without disclosing the source, would you mind if I did this?

Well, sure, but....it's not written that well! I just cranked that out last night and it still doesn't accurately convey the experience, but sure, if you want to repost it, that's cool. Higher self experiences are usually very telepathic with instantaneous info transfer, at least for me, and so it's hard to translate it into written words without losing something along the way.

Something I didn't mention in that post was that I could feel the mindset of the people involved in what I was seeing. Like village peasants, with that whole poverty/suffering vibe, and I could feel how they, as souls, believed that they needed to experience that....but they actually don't. The implications of that are far reaching. It's basically saying that "something" is tricking us into incarnating here...? Making us believe that we "need" this, when possibly we don't??? Think of how deeply rooted it is for many people to believe that they "need" incarnational experience.

It's quite possible "something" has given us amnesia so we won't remember what our other options are. Like something wants us trapped here, endlessly cycling forever and ever. A loosh farm.

That's kind of a cynical way of looking at things though, and I could be wrong. I think there's another piece to this puzzle, something I'm missing....

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-07T16:22:53Z

Cause and effect when taken as a intelligent design or an intelligent system is ofcourse a lie. And i would disagree with children being accurate about mostly anything as tests goes to show that amongst other things. Children are very prone to lying to anyone at any chance if it suits their needs. Infact it could go so far a to alledge that children are infact most often completely without a consience and only develope it through interaction and seeing that if you hit someone with a hammer they tend to either hit you back or die or you get punished. Ofcourse that being outside the scope of this argument.

So, in linear terms the cause and effect is based on the idea that all things have a certain reflective properities. If you shine a lamp towards the wall the effect of it is that the wall reflects. Thus cause and effect. So when you do something that causes a ripple in time and it bounces off other things and causes an effect. You can ofcourse move away from that effect well in hand to completely miss it but the cause and effect itself as a purely physical manifestation stays the same regardless.

Is cause and effect a reality, yes i believe so, but is it one that is best used to describe the underlying patterns of our world. Then no, it isnt. A apple dosnt fall towards the earth, apple is lighter so it moves towards the relative center point of gravity between earth and the apple which in theory makes it appear as if the apple falls towards earth. Is it neccesary for most levels of thought to realise that to say "the apple fell towards the earth" is completely wrong. I dont believe it is but to truly understand it must happen.

So while cause and effect is both, a purely mechanical function of the universe and a control system. One important thing is to understand how it works for all intents and purposes it does work. The two are definetly not the same and cause and effect as such does NOT describe the real situation of the world, however, for most who are not willing to learn alot of the deeper situations with the world it is more than adequate for it.

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-07T11:29:36Z

The " notion " of cause and effect is the biggest cornerstone of the lie and again its one that children can see right thru when it is posited. The idea of cause and effect appeals to the intellect because on a certain level it " seems " logical and " appears " to operate, but the fact is that it is not a law at all but a highly manipulated reality that is not what it appears to be. Some of the appearences are maintained at the boundary of mankinds interaction with the natural world. There are clues in quantum physics and in understanding the nature of thought.
At different levels of association things get stacked very quickly.
TO put this into language is a tall order.
I suggest people, think again and look at how shadows have set things up to protect the predatory reality field and its agents.

Re: Karma -The Lie

2006-06-07T09:35:04Z

I have no idea if i'm correct in this or not, but to me karma is 2 things, a list of what you have experienced and what you havent experienced. So if you kill but you havent been killed you lack an experience that someone can give to you if you desire. And karma is a very basic cause and effect machine. If you do something then there is usually a counter response to it. It will not necceserily target you if you can move out of its way but it can be an aspect of karma.

Karma has no control over your life, there is no lords of karma or lordettes of karma (ladies). It is only a system that keeps in memory what you have done so you have free experiences in stock if you want to experience being murdered then the universe "ows" you that experience and that would be karma.

Cashing in that debt is completely voluntary