I'll bet we've all known people who keep coming to us with the same problems, and when we give them the sure-fire methods to deal with them, they ignore it.

Yup.  !  So true.  I had a falling out with somebody over that, actually.  An old acquaintance I'd known since highschool, we were briefly roommates, and ran with the same people and circle in life, and kind of came and went in and out of each other's lives off and on for 9 years.  And she was ALL about the guy drama.  The same problems that never seemed to end, just repeated with a new guy's face attached.  Very dysfunctional.  I was the patient listener, and listened to her complain all the time about her latest boyfriend who she lived with, and had been with at that point for almost 3 years actually.  Finally one day I just laid it out for her:  Look. You have two options here.  You can either accept him and the situation for what it is and stop complaining, (which means adopting a new perspective of acceptance) or just BREAK UP ALREADY!!!!!

It was blunt, but truthful.

Didn't go over very well.   And that was the end of that.   oh well.   It felt good to say that though.  She didn't want to hear that.  She liked her drama.  She'd been embroiled in drama for as long as I'd known her, which was 9 years at that point.  She LOVED it, and even bragged that when she was bored she would pick brawls with her men.  Not fights, brawls, where it was all out.  Maximum feeding potential.   

A lot of people have serious issues, and there's nothing you can really say to them to make them see the way they're being.  The issues are usually rooted in childhood traumas and dysfunctional families that they grew up with, and until they confront that, they'll just be a histrionic mess for the rest of their life.  So they'll either get there on their own, or they won't.  In the meantime, most of us probably agree that it's best not to have those people in our life.   Just walk away.

Soloflecks wrote:

Some people just want it to happen by magic and some just want to continue to wallow in their own pain because they're addicted; it's become a habit they can't seem to let go of.  I'll bet we've all known people who keep coming to us with the same problems, and when we give them the sure-fire methods to deal with them, they ignore it.

Most definitely, and it's so freakin' frustrating.

You know what else? Some people continue to pull themselves up by their bootstraps... and really DO try... but have more to deal with than meets the eye. For instance *attachments* whether they be actual entities, or crystallized forms of their own neurosese, or bondages that have been passed down the bloodline. These energies can suck their ability to progress, holding them back, keeping them stuck. It's can be such a complex mess why people can't pull themselves out of patterns. Sometimes I feel like we have SO MUCH working against us - but that could be me falling into a victim mentality today It's been a rough week. There are periods of life that run smooth and progression is so immediate... and other times that I'm reminded LIFE IS HARD. Sometimes hard work and willpower isn't enough... and that's very upsetting/confusing for people who don't know how to access *outside* assistance (although, I know it's really coming from *inside.*) But, honestly, sometimes our issues are so layered and complex that tapping into the Divine Mind (or whatever you call it) is the only way to bring about the hidden revelations that will truly help. But, I guess that's a different topic.

I like that quote. Sometimes there's nothing to say or do, you just gotta love and listen... and sometimes you can't listen because it drains you... so you have to love from afar.

Lotta good points, Once & Future.  Having a neutral or impartial viewpoint definitely doesn't mean not having feelings or compassion.  I can most help people who are hurting by not helping them pick their wounds.  Sometimes when we don't seem to get over a hurt, it's because we don't want to shed our victim image.  I think that's why self-help books often don't work, because diligence and work is required.  Some people just want it to happen by magic and some just want to continue to wallow in their own pain because they're addicted; it's become a habit they can't seem to let go of.  I'll bet we've all known people who keep coming to us with the same problems, and when we give them the sure-fire methods to deal with them, they ignore it.

I read something once that made an impression on me:  "Sometimes all you can do is love people and let them have their problems." 

However I confess that I find drama addicts and constant complainers very wearying to be around, and I don't currently have any friends with those tendencies in my life.

Once & Future wrote:

I do think there's a difference between gossip and talking about our relationships. I don't think it's a realistic, or even a worthy goal to never ever to talk about other people. We may THINK we're being "impeccable" with our word, or doing right by stifling our desire to let off steam, but sh*t happens, and sometimes you gotta vent. Wouldn't most people agree that venting is healthy? Otherwise, you build resentment which creates emotional and physical disease.

Soloflecks wrote:

If we also accept The Second Agreement, Don't Take Anything Personally, we don't build resentment that leads to emotional distress.  And I can't tell you how great a relief that is!  But it takes effort and practice for it to become effortless.  Nothing anyone else does is about us; it's about them.  If you have trouble not taking things personally, try adopting a 3rd person point of view which helps take your ego and emotional reaction out of the picture. 

That one works hand in hand with The Third Agreement, Don't Make Assumptions.  We can only know what's in our own head, so it's unwise to make judgments or project our ideas onto another.  We should make it clear what we want and not imagine another person can possibly know how we feel unless we tell them.  Assumptions cause a lot of drama and is a major factor when relationships fail.

Yes, I agree. Not taking things personally is a huge relief! I'm getting better and better. I've read the Four Agreements (granted that was years ago) and I do think it's a powerful book, one I may want to re-visit. (Lyra, that's too cool about the T4A's finding you at the bookstore!)

Setting aside the subjects of malicious gossip and banter about people behind their backs... and strictly refering to situations where people can be downright hurtful or disappointing... I still think it's unrealisitc and maybe even a little dangerous not to discuss our feelings with others.

There's a wide range between sweating the *small stuff* and experiencing profound hurt or disappointment. Small stuff aside, there are times when people really hurt my feelings and/or press my buttons.

Yes, I know this is due to their "own issues" (not to mention mine!) but regardless, I FEEL the pain. And, while I'm on the phone with mom or disucssing with my honey, I do a pretty decent job remembering that people have good reason for their behavior. I try to have compassion for them while venting my own emotions. I don't bash. I don't throw a pity party for myself... but I talk. I have to talk it out.

Honestly, and maybe I'm selling myself short, but I doubt there will come a day in this lifetime when i'm completely free from hurt or disappointment.  I've been reading books like T4A's, Power of Now, Conversations w/ God.... you name it I've read it... and while I'll never stop striving for growth and freedom, I also don't want to make the mistake of trying to rise above my own humanity. I think that's a recipe for disappointment. This statement is easy to misconstrue, so I'll clarify that I'm always going to strive to be the best human I can be, but barring some miraculous quantum leap in my spiritual evolution, I think pain and disappointment and the need to process will be part of my life for years to come.

One of the real blunders with the *self-help universe* is that many people can't live up to the lofty ideals set forth by these books. They inevitably fail, and then throw out the baby with the bathwater. Or worse, some people read these books, believe they're adhering to these aspirations and then implode because their efforts have actually been a form of repression. Not saying anybody on this thread is in danger of such, or is claiming to rise above their humanity, but this is a serious problem. I've seen friends lose their way because they can't live up to the expectations. They abandon the path altogether.  It's a fine line striving to be the best human you can be, and striving to be in-human.

I think this is an extremely important point. A neutral point of view is super helpful and one of the secret ingredients to a happy life... at the same time, it's important to acknowledge that people are hurting. Also, when I need to vent, it's my responsibility to choose a friend whose isn't going to *milk* my emotions and whip me into an emotional frenzy. Some friends, as we well know, feed and bond over drama. It's our responsibility to call people who are balanced, aware and will have something constructive to offer.

Hella yes.

Oooh, goosebumps, lyra. 

If a friend of mine comes to me and wants to vent about someone, though, I'm not going to be holier-than-thou and quote The Four Agreements to him or her.

Me either, Jen.  I just make sure to stay neutral or try to steer the conversation in another direction.  In one of the Ruiz books there are testimonials, and a company department had actually studied TFA together and implemented the principles at work with great results.  I would love to do that where I work.

Hi Solo,

Because of your post here on The Four Agreements I went to Books a Million and bought it two nights ago.  I finished the book last night and I must say that it is a simple but yet powerful book.  The four agreements are simple in terms of the level of complexity but very hard to implement at times.  I am looking forward to use the suggestions by Don Ruiz and hopefully get rid of some of the baggage I have been carrying all my life.   Be impecable with the Word.......Don't make assumptions..........Don't take anything personal..........I will do my best.......................Better yet.....................Don't judge myself.............Stop feeling guilty...............and again, and again and again............

Regards

Me either, Jen.  I just make sure to stay neutral or try to steer the conversation in another direction.  In one of the Ruiz books there are testimonials, and a company department had actually studied TFA together and implemented the principles at work with great results.  I would love to do that where I work.

The Four Agreements.

My eyes actually got big and I laughed out loud and said "Wow!"   I even did a doubletake, like, what the....??   Is that really....??        After reading the excerpt Soloflecks had posted earlier in the thread I had thought, "I want to get that book...I'll hunt it down....I want it!"   But when I was at Barnes tonight I wasn't even thinking about it anymore.  But there it was.   It found me.   So I broke my new rule about not spending money anymore on anything extra and bought it anyway.     

It's weird how things work out sometimes......

I think you can see that adopting The Four Agreements makes gossip impossible.  Cool, huh.

Or at least, helps us to cut down on it, which is also cool.
As it says in the Four Agreements, we're always doing our best.

If a friend of mine comes to me and wants to vent about someone,
though, I'm not going to be holier-than-thou and quote The Four Agreements to him or her.  After they've let off steam, maybe then they'll be more receptive to a higher perspective.

I do think there's a difference between gossip and talking about our relationships. I don't think it's a realistic, or even a worthy goal to never ever to talk about other people. We may THINK we're being "impeccable" with our word, or doing right by stifling our desire to let off steam, but sh*t happens, and sometimes you gotta vent. Wouldn't most people agree that venting is healthy? Otherwise, you build resentment which creates emotional and physical disease.

If we also accept The Second Agreement, Don't Take Anything Personally, we don't build resentment that leads to emotional distress.  And I can't tell you how great a relief that is!  But it takes effort and practice for it to become effortless.  Nothing anyone else does is about us; it's about them.  If you have trouble not taking things personally, try adopting a 3rd person point of view which helps take your ego and emotional reaction out of the picture. 

That one works hand in hand with The Third Agreement, Don't Make Assumptions.  We can only know what's in our own head, so it's unwise to make judgments or project our ideas onto another.  We should make it clear what we want and not imagine another person can possibly know how we feel unless we tell them.  Assumptions cause a lot of drama and is a major factor when relationships fail.

The Four Agreement, Always Do Your Best, keeps us from judging ourselves.  We can only do our best, and what that is varies according to factors such as health.  And we should understand that others can also only do their best which also varies according to circumstances.  We don't have to worry about whether or not someone else is doing their best, because we cannot possibly know and cannot judge.  We only have to be responsible for what WE do.  As long as what we do is our best, then it's good enough.

Lyra wrote:

It can be a fine line though between getting advise and perspective, and slipping into the realm of smack talking.    So tread cautiously.  And I think that the whole "letting off steam" thing is another issue in itself.  It's such a gray area.  Because it's not petty and catty for the sake of being gossipy and vindictive ....it's a situation where somebody is truly upset, frustrated, angry, etc. and basically needs to rage for a few minutes and let it all out.

Yes, it is a fine line to walk, and it's super easy to veer from steam to smack. I try to remember that whoever upset me likely had a good reason for their poor behavior.... and I try to have compassion for their situation while simultaneously venting frustration. That's a neat trick.

That's the goal. My personal peace has become a precious commodity and I'm careful not to spend it frivolously!

Who would you say talked more about the other parent, mom or dad? In my experience, it's usually the mother. Daughter as "confidant" reinforces what I was saying about gossip bonding between women. But yes, I'm sure plenty of men bond via gossip too. I just think they do it with a lot less vim and vigor than women! And, most men can't run the gossip marathon like a woman. They don't have the attention span.

I guess because I was the victim of gossip countless times, I'm sensitive to gossiping. Yet, I must admit, the tendency to yimmer yammer about so-and-so, not maliciously but as a point of conversation, is something that I've had to consciously curb my whole life. I swear, it's part of female indoctrination.

Jen wrote:

Gossip was a way of life for me from an early age:  my mother made me her confidant about her difficult relationship with my father.  One time when I was about eight,  she was really mad at him, and fuming to me. I was very upset and said to her, "Mom, he's human." What I was trying to say, I think, was:  "He's a real person, not a monster."  She just snapped sarcastically: "Oh yes, he's human.  I'll grant you that."  Which only made me feel worse.

But I soon learned that just listening and agreeing was the way to
bond with her. And of course, I had my own problems with my dad, and so the habit was established.

Jen, your comment about your mom reinforced for me that people (women in particular) bond via gossip. It's a sick way to connect, but so damn pervasive..... and it's interesting to note that women are the primary purveyors of gossip. Female culture is so catty. Just look at the workplace. Women are less likely to help each other. It's unusual for young women to find female mentors. There's no Good Ole Girls club because women are too territorial. Bit of a digression, but something that's always bugged me.

Ah, but my dad gossiped about my mom too.  He had a very close friend who was the male half of a couple my parents socialized with, and once when we were discussing that friendship, he said, "We both have crazy wives, and this creates a bond between us."

As you can see, my family was/is delightfully dysfunctional