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	<title type="html"><![CDATA[Noble Realms — Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
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	<updated>2006-11-10T02:12:01Z</updated>
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	<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?id=2066</id>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=47068#p47068" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>If people did not have law enforcement to rely on to ensure their safety, everyone would need to pay greater attention to their own senses.&nbsp; Seeing more clearly, sharper hearing and sense of smell, stronger intuition.&nbsp; Trusting your own instincts.&nbsp; It&#039;s great to know how to defend yourself, but it&#039;s even better if you just don&#039;t need to.&nbsp; The body has a built in warning system to tell you, don&#039;t go this way, don&#039;t trust this person, and so on.&nbsp; If we all just pay attention to that, we will be fine.&nbsp; </p><p>The problem is that &quot;civilzed&quot; society is designed to throw people off their own instincts.&nbsp; Our senses are especially manipulated by what we see and hear on television, or in movies.&nbsp; There is a constant routine going where you are shown one thing, and told it is something else.&nbsp; This makes people have a deep distrust of themselves, and the tendency is to project this outward, fearing that there is some vague threat &quot;out there&quot;, outside of you.&nbsp; When really the biggest threat is that you might betray yourself, betray your own instincts.</p><p>There are already tons of criminals and psychopaths and other unsavory characters living out in society.&nbsp; Some are on parole, and some just haven&#039;t been caught.&nbsp; Sometimes they are fine, upstanding members of a community, well-liked and seemingly very moral and responsible.&nbsp; Some of the worst crimes in the world happen, not out in the streets, but at home in people&#039;s living rooms and bedrooms.&nbsp; The law just doesn&#039;t protect everyone.</p><p>Sometimes people CAN be wrongly accused of crimes, and wrongly convicted.&nbsp; Even people who plead guilty deserve a fair hearing, because they could be deluded.&nbsp; I don&#039;t believe it is right to sentence another person to death under any circumstances.&nbsp; If you look back over history people have been sentenced to death for some pretty stupid things, like having different beliefs, or stealing a chicken, or having been born an heir to a throne that someone else was determined to have at any cost.&nbsp; </p><p>Hysteria can take over when people feel threatened, the impulse to just look for the first person who poses and threat and hang them, by god, just get rid of them, make an example out of that scum.&nbsp; Where is that impulse really coming from?&nbsp; Is it really a natural instinct, or something imposed on us, a code we need to break?</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Athenais]]></name>
			</author>
			<updated>2006-11-10T02:12:01Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=47068#p47068</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=47058#p47058" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>These &#039;law-less&#039; hypothetical situations remind me of &quot;John Dunbar&quot; in Dances with wolves, saying he didn&#039;t know how to feel after fighting the rival indians. </p><p>&quot;This fight had no dark political objective; we were fighting to protect the women, children and food in the tents next to us&quot;.</p><p>This is how it would be in my mind...</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Free_Your_Mind]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.noblerealms.org/profile.php?id=841</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2006-11-09T23:21:04Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=47058#p47058</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=47051#p47051" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>lyra, you are obviously and evidently an EN-souled human.</p><p>Yes, life is hard, having to watch what UN-EN-souled humans do to each other.</p><p>One is more or less driven to just stay out of the way.</p><p>I empathize completely.&nbsp; And &quot;keeping my head down&quot; has been a primary skill-set since childhood.</p><p>Yet, all of us are mortal in any case. Nobody ever gets out of this incarnation in a live body--SO--</p><p>maybe it pays to pick our heads up and squeak, &quot;NO!&quot; once in a while, or even more often.</p><p>Further, sacrificing ourselves to provide a public role-model might not be such a bad idea, either, in the long-run.&nbsp; But who knows, except the martyr and God?</p><p>But I&#039;m not here to cause any harm, in any case, myself, either.&nbsp; So we just have to know how to keep ducking out of trouble.</p><p>: )&nbsp; Chaiyah</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[chaiyah]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.noblerealms.org/profile.php?id=1030</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2006-11-09T18:41:29Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=47051#p47051</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21799#p21799" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>Sowelu wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I often wonder if we mistake &quot;3D&quot; for &quot;fear-based mind-programming&quot;. The way we know it here now, thinking it&#039;s the <em>only</em> way it could be, seems &quot;off&quot;. My inner sense tells me that 3D was once quite different. That there can not only be an &quot;STO 3D&quot; but - as someone nicely coined - an &quot;STA 3D&quot;.</p><p>What makes it what it is these days (and, granted, for quite some &quot;time&quot;) is the overlay of mind-programming based in the fears that live beneath the predator&#039;s mind. I could be wrong there, but again, it&#039;s my sense that &quot;the way it is&quot; is not because we&#039;re in 3D so much as it is because of who took over the 3D landscape in this particular hologram. And that it can, and is, change/ing.</p><p>~Sowelu</p></blockquote></div><p>Absolutely!&nbsp; I think &quot;hijack&quot; might be the operative word here to describe what happened.&nbsp; &nbsp;</p><p>Something I wanted to mention in a previous post to Aya, but which got left out because the post was already going on for waaaay too long, was the idea that many psychopath personalities and cold, predatory people are probably shaped and molded by the world we live in.&nbsp; That if you changed the world, and everybody was born into good solid families, receiving love and attention and a great upbringing, that many people would turn out differently.</p><p>There would still be OP&#039;s, I&#039;m sure, if the OP theory is in fact valid.&nbsp; But would these OP&#039;s turn into outright sociopaths if born into a pleasant, utopian world?&nbsp; Would / could serial killers still exist?&nbsp; Would rapists and child molestors and all the unpleasant nasty types still form? </p><p>I don&#039;t know, but it&#039;s a good question.&nbsp; The C&#039;s did say afterall that a psychopath was a &quot;malfunctioning OP&quot; or something to that effect.&nbsp; &nbsp;That something happened to flip the psychopath switch on.&nbsp; Implying that maybe it didn&#039;t necessarily have to go that way, I don&#039;t know. (and btw, to address sowelu&#039;s 3D STO idea......the C&#039;s did say as well that 3D was in fact an STO realm at one point, and that&#039;s what &quot;the fall&quot; was all about..)</p><p>God you know, there isn&#039;t a week that goes by where I don&#039;t see some stupid parent being an ass with their child, killing all the spark and child jubilance right out of them.&nbsp; &nbsp;Just nasty people spreading their learned, programmed nastiness onto their offspring to perpetuate the misery.&nbsp; So many parents don&#039;t realize the things that come out of their mouths.&nbsp; They don&#039;t know how awful and mean and shitty they sound.&nbsp; They&#039;re so far removed from their own inner child that they can&#039;t even see what kind of a miserable monster this world has turned them into...or that they&#039;re turning their child into the same miserable monster they are. </p><p>Kids all come out the same, shiny, innocent and cute.&nbsp; They&#039;re turned into monsters over time, usually by their parents who were in turn subjected to monster-ness by their own parents, and so on down the line.&nbsp; </p><p>Change the world, and you change the people. </p><p>Change the people, and I don&#039;t think we&#039;d have that alarmist world previously described in this thread of roaming rampant psychopaths on the loose.&nbsp; &nbsp;There just wouldn&#039;t be a need for the lockdown control going on in this world.&nbsp; </p><p>But &quot;they&quot; created (hijacked....) the world, which in turn creates the people, which in turn creates the laws and police force that&#039;s &quot;needed&quot; to control the monsters that they created in the first place.&nbsp; &nbsp;It&#039;s a vicious cycle.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[lyra]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.noblerealms.org/profile.php?id=23</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2005-08-21T04:40:22Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21799#p21799</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21784#p21784" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>Sowelu wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What makes it what it is these days (and, granted, for quite some &quot;time&quot;) is the overlay of mind-programming based in the fears that live beneath the predator&#039;s mind. I could be wrong there, but again, it&#039;s my sense that &quot;the way it is&quot; is not because we&#039;re in 3D so much as it is because of who took over the 3D landscape in this particular hologram. And that it can, and is, change/ing.</p></blockquote></div><p>I can certainly agree with that. I don&#039;t think 3D necessarily has to be the way it is. If Icke/Bramley/Sitchen et al are all correct then it&#039;s clearly the influence of the reptillians/annanuki that has led to the human condition being what it is. ie that we can&#039;t all seem to get a long no matter how hard we try. </p><p>So you have to wonder what life would be like on this planet if there were no controlling forces behind the scenes, be they human secret societies or 4th density STS aliens or whatever. I&#039;m sure things would be a lot more peaceful and humanity much less divided.</p><p>But certainly while these negative forces exist in this realm, I don&#039;t think humanity has much hope of ever becoming completely peaceful. But I agree that it can, and probably is, changing.</p><p>Andy</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Ayahuasca]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.noblerealms.org/profile.php?id=165</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2005-08-20T19:27:48Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21784#p21784</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21782#p21782" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I often wonder if we mistake &quot;3D&quot; for &quot;fear-based mind-programming&quot;. The way we know it here now, thinking it&#039;s the <em>only</em> way it could be, seems &quot;off&quot;. My inner sense tells me that 3D was once quite different. That there can not only be an &quot;STO 3D&quot; but - as someone nicely coined - an &quot;STA 3D&quot;.</p><p>What makes it what it is these days (and, granted, for quite some &quot;time&quot;) is the overlay of mind-programming based in the fears that live beneath the predator&#039;s mind. I could be wrong there, but again, it&#039;s my sense that &quot;the way it is&quot; is not because we&#039;re in 3D so much as it is because of who took over the 3D landscape in this particular hologram. And that it can, and is, change/ing.</p><p>~Sowelu</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Sowelu]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.noblerealms.org/profile.php?id=522</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2005-08-20T19:07:44Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21782#p21782</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21780#p21780" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I think we ultimately agree on far more than what we disagree. I don&#039;t really have any issues with what you&#039;ve just said. I think it really comes down to what I said in my first post in this thread about getting our densities a little mixed up.</p><p>I fully admit that I&#039;m approaching this disagreement from a 3rd density perspective. But that&#039;s exactly where we are right now and I will always contend that what you&#039;re effectively proposing could never work in a 3d society. </p><p>I totally agree that we are programmed to not know our own power, however I think that&#039;s part of the rules of the game in 3D and the reason why we&#039;re here.</p><p>Once we finally wake up and realise that we really don&#039;t have to dodge bullets, well that&#039;s probably the moment we finally pop out of 3d. A case of well done, you&#039;ve completed level 3 of the game, now move on to level 4! <img src="https://forum.noblerealms.org/img/smilies/smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="smile" /></p><p>Level 3 is already the &#039;wild west&#039; level as it is, and even though I think things could be a whole lot different and still work just nicely, like in David MacGregor&#039;s idea, I don&#039;t think a 3d society could ever work with total anarchy and absolutely no laws. Close maybe, but not quite. There are too many sheep in this realm who have no intentions of waking up, and too many wolves making damn sure they won&#039;t wake up. Well that&#039;s my opinion anyway. I could be wrong of course.</p><p>Andy</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Ayahuasca]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.noblerealms.org/profile.php?id=165</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2005-08-20T18:38:20Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21780#p21780</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21779#p21779" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>quote=lyra]Which means somebody would always be at your house guarding it and looking out for it at all times, if the area you lived in was really that bad and required it.&nbsp; &nbsp;It&#039;s the smart thing to do.&nbsp; &nbsp;You would be someone who is in shape, who can fight and protect yourself.....the way humans used to be.&nbsp; &nbsp; You would be armed because you might need that.....the way humans used to be too.&nbsp; &nbsp;It would be a completely different world, a different mindset.&nbsp; You&#039;d be ready to take care of yourself and your home.</p></blockquote></div><div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So do you really think those conditions would lead to an ideal society?</p></blockquote></div><p>I didn&#039;t say that.&nbsp; &nbsp;Going back and re-reading the exchange, and understanding the <em>context</em> of why it was written, you&#039;ll see that the reason I wrote that was in response to what you wrote about going out and leaving your house unprotected without a care in the world, lalala, then coming home to find that a band of thugs has taken over.</p><p>So I wrote that <strong>not to say that this is the ideal society, but to make a point that what you were doing was taking a current behavior / mindset and applying it to a society where the context no longer applies.</strong>&nbsp; People forget that in the event that the world changes, they can no longer operate the way they currently are.&nbsp; <strong>Current modes for going about your day to day business no longer apply.</strong>&nbsp; You were taking a current mindset and mistakenly assuming you would still be that way under different circumstances.&nbsp; &nbsp;But in that type of society one wouldn&#039;t do what you outlined.&nbsp; That was the point.&nbsp; &nbsp;Again, it wasn&#039;t to promote it as being some &quot;ideal society&quot; to live in.&nbsp; </p><br /><div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Where people, in order to keep themselves protected, need to train themselves up into what would be effectively human terminators. Having everyone walking around with guns and weapons, ready to dish out their own form of justice should anybody stand in their way. A place where only the fittest, strongest, most ruthless people will get by without any problems.&nbsp; Please excuse my obviously conditioned mind, but I don&#039;t really see any major advantages of that scenario <img src="https://forum.noblerealms.org/img/smilies/wink.png" width="15" height="15" alt="wink" /></p></blockquote></div><p>Ayahuasca...........I don&#039;t even know where to begin.&nbsp; I&#039;m starting to get a little bit frustrated because I feel like you&#039;re twisting around what I wrote.&nbsp; When people keep doing this to me I usually stop responding because it becomes a major energy drain.&nbsp; And in this full moon weekend, I&#039;m not about to start feeding the moon with loosh.&nbsp; But, let me clarify anyway.&nbsp; &nbsp;I&#039;ll use this post to clear up the stuff that seems to either have been overlooked, misunderstood or somehow twisted around, and if it still doesn&#039;t help matters, then I&#039;ll be stepping aside from this exchange, because there&#039;s no point.&nbsp; </p><p>I didn&#039;t say - or mean to imply - that the &quot;conditioned mind&quot; had to do with the paragraph you just excerpted.&nbsp; &nbsp;It has to do with this, and let me quote my own paragraphsn from both posts:</p><div class="quotebox"><cite>lyra wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>But again, I did also mention in my opening posts, which montalk elaborated on, the ideas of molding and shaping your reality at will, and learning how to intend for these things to not happen in the first place.&nbsp; This is VERY important here, and it&#039;s being overlooked I think by everybody.&nbsp; Nobody&#039;s touching this concept as far as I&#039;ve seen other than montalk and I.....</p><p>I personally believe it&#039;s because we&#039;ve been brainwashed not see any other reality possibilities - they have literally programmed all other options out of us and reduced our consciousness capabilities.&nbsp; &nbsp;Think of our sight / vision -&nbsp; We can&#039;t see very far away with great detail, like birds.&nbsp; Can&#039;t see in the dark like cats and owls.&nbsp; &nbsp;We can only see the regular spectrum of colors.&nbsp; Can&#039;t see infrared.&nbsp; Can&#039;t see ultraviolet.&nbsp; Can&#039;t see x-rays.&nbsp; Can&#039;t see other densities, entities or even see our own damn auras and chakras!!!&nbsp; (most people, anyway.)&nbsp; &nbsp;So not only is our physical vision severely limited, but so is our entire idea about how reality could and should be.&nbsp; How do we know things would have to be the way you outlined?&nbsp; &nbsp;Would it really?&nbsp; Or is that just programming?....</p><p>In the labyrinth, nothing is what it appears to be.&nbsp; The same goes for this world, and all the rules and laws of &quot;reality&#039; that we&#039;ve been fed for eons.&nbsp; &nbsp;We&#039;re so programmed about how things &quot;are&quot; and &quot;should be&quot; with society and people and spirituality that we can no longer imagine or believe in any other way.&nbsp; We&#039;ve been cut off from greater truths........but it&#039;s not hopeless.&nbsp; We can reconnect and open our eyes.</p></blockquote></div><p>I thought it was pretty clear what I was referring to.&nbsp; I have to wonder, why oh why are the points that montalk and I brought up being overlooked??&nbsp; <img src="https://forum.noblerealms.org/img/smilies/sad.png" width="15" height="15" alt="sad" />&nbsp; Maybe people don&#039;t &quot;see&quot; something if the timing isn&#039;t right for them.&nbsp; I know I&#039;ve done that a BUNCH of times.&nbsp; A radical non-3rd density idea came my way and I just wasn&#039;t at a place in life where I was ready to accept it.&nbsp; I had it in my head about &quot;the way things are.&quot;&nbsp; And so if it didn&#039;t fit my pardigm, it didn&#039;t get absorbed.&nbsp; </p><p>What I&#039;m ultimately prooposing is the mysterious third option.&nbsp; &nbsp;So don&#039;t be distracted by all that other sidetrack debate about a society full of roaming psychopaths on the loose.......................let&#039;s focus on the ultimate point here, which all along has been that <strong>we are programmed to not know our own power, not believe that we can control our own realities and destinies, and most importantly............to not see any other options or ways that reality can be.</strong></p><p>It all goes back to the analogy I used of our limited physical vision, and the quote from the movie &quot;Labyrinth.&quot;&nbsp; &nbsp;All we know is this reality, because that&#039;s all we&#039;ve ever experienced since birth. And I&#039;m telling everybody, whether they want to believe me or hear it, is that <em>it doesn&#039;t have to be this way.</em></p><br /><p>Now, I hesitate to address the rest of the comments, for fear that their placement at the end of the post will cause one to forget the more important stuff that came in the middle of the post;&nbsp; if there was a way I could leave off here, with these thoughts, I would, but unfortanately, I have to tackle the post in the order it appeared.&nbsp; &nbsp;</p><br /><div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And I definitely don&#039;t have a victim metality, I&#039;m just trying to be realistic.</p></blockquote></div><p>I know you don&#039;t know have a victim mentallty.&nbsp; I&#039;ve never heard you whine on this forum, or pass the buck, it&#039;s not your personality, I know.&nbsp; &nbsp;And actually, I&#039;ve described myself as having a &quot;realistic&quot; personality to Tom when he was proposing some radical non-3rd density way of being.&nbsp; I would get all frowny and be like, &quot;You know, I&#039;m not being negative or pessmistic here, I&#039;m just being realistic!&quot; </p><p>&quot;Realistic&quot; for me meaning, &quot;I&#039;m operating within the parameters of a 3rd density mindset that&#039;s been programmed to believe what they&#039;ve told us the limitations and boundaries are.&quot;&nbsp; It took me a long time to realize that sometimes realistic just means programmed.&nbsp; &nbsp;And I don&#039;t say this to insult you, so I hope you don&#039;t take it that way.&nbsp; &nbsp;I&#039;m sharing my own story of how I used to say the same thing. </p><p>&nbsp; &nbsp;<br /></p><div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think it basically comes down to what we&#039;ve said about the level playing field. </p><p>Now if everyone on the planet was a fully souled human, and there were no psychopaths in are midst, then I would probably support your proposals.</p></blockquote></div><p>Refer back to the excerpts I re-printed from my previous post about the mysterious third option, reality creation, intention, remembering who we are and knowing our own power...</p><br /><div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>But to use your own words against you:</p></blockquote></div><p>I don&#039;t think it needs to resort to that.&nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;Using my own words against me&quot; ?&nbsp; I&#039;m not here to battle it out with you, fighting and screaming.&nbsp; &nbsp;So there&#039;s no need to say something like that.&nbsp; This isn&#039;t about &quot;I&#039;m going to be right at any cost, use whatever I can against you and win!&quot;&nbsp; &nbsp;I&#039;m perfectly wiling to walk away from this exchange whether you&#039;ve heard me or not.&nbsp; It&#039;s not my goal to brow beat, or be right, or win.</p><div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>quote=lyra] &quot;The biggest downfall of many people is that they don&#039;t realize that not everybody is really, well, a human.&nbsp; They mistakenly believe that everybody is on the same level, with the same potential, because we&#039;re never taught anything different.&nbsp; Or it&#039;s a case of &quot;I want to see the good in everybody!&quot;&nbsp; Well, hate to break it to them, but that&#039;s naive. &quot;</p></blockquote></div><p>Yes.....and <em>the context</em> for which that was said?&nbsp; &nbsp;It wasn&#039;t in the context of what we&#039;re talking about here.&nbsp; &nbsp;It was in context of (tillibullu? I believe it was...) wondering why Bush and his family are the way that they are, why they are &quot;unwilling to process their own shadows&quot; and such.</p><br /><div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And there&#039;s the problem.</p></blockquote></div><p>What?&nbsp; The psychopaths?&nbsp; &nbsp;Bah!&nbsp; &nbsp;No, I disagree.&nbsp; Yes, there ARE psychopaths.....but whether they need to <em>dictate your life and terrorize you</em> is a WHOLE other story.&nbsp; I don&#039;t believe for a MINUTE that they have that kind of power over you, me or anybody.&nbsp; &nbsp;Again, refer back to my re-posetd excerpts regarding <strong>connecting with our Higher Selves, remembering who we are, knowing our power, and realizing that we have the ability to intend for reality to go the way we need it to go. </strong> We have the ability for protection and to draw to us whatever it is we need, when we need it.&nbsp; I don&#039;t say this as empty speak.&nbsp; I saw this from personal experience.&nbsp; I&#039;ve done it too many times to count, and so haven&#039;t others.&nbsp; It is the way it is.&nbsp; But they don&#039;t want you, or anybody else, to know this.</p><br /><div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So what would be an ideal third way, given that your proposals are too extreme and unworkable for this reality, and the system we currently have is far from ideal?</p></blockquote></div><p>Please refer back to my excerpt regarding connecting with your higher self, remember who we are, knowing our power, realizing we have the ability to intend for reality to go the way we need it to go.....the ability for protection and to draw to us whatever we need, when we need it.......etc.&nbsp; Etc.</p><p>btw, this also affects the timelines we wind up on, if I understand things correctly.&nbsp; &nbsp;Remembering who we are and regaining our personal power and choosing to reject the rules and limitations placed on us by our controllers raises your FRV.&nbsp; &nbsp;In raising your FRV, you&#039;ve now expanded your options, so to speak.&nbsp; You&#039;ve opened doors that previously weren&#039;t open, and can find yourself with more timeline options to choose from.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[lyra]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.noblerealms.org/profile.php?id=23</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2005-08-20T17:59:42Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21779#p21779</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21774#p21774" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Wow that is a good article nice idea David MacGregor has there.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[E3mpirical1]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.noblerealms.org/profile.php?id=304</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2005-08-20T15:36:12Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21774#p21774</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21772#p21772" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>lyra wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Which means somebody would always be at your house guarding it and looking out for it at all times, if the area you lived in was really that bad and required it.&nbsp; &nbsp;It&#039;s the smart thing to do.&nbsp; &nbsp;You would be someone who is in shape, who can fight and protect yourself.....the way humans used to be.&nbsp; &nbsp; You would be armed because you might need that.....the way humans used to be too.&nbsp; &nbsp;It would be a completely different world, a different mindset.&nbsp; You&#039;d be ready to take care of yourself and your home.</p></blockquote></div><p>So do you really think those conditions would lead to an ideal society? Where people, in order to keep themselves protected, need to train themselves up into what would be effectively human terminators. Having everyone walking around with guns and weapons, ready to dish out their own form of justice should anybody stand in their way. A place where only the fittest, strongest, most ruthless people will get by without any problems.</p><p>Please excuse my obviously conditioned mind, but I don&#039;t really see any major advantages of that scenario <img src="https://forum.noblerealms.org/img/smilies/wink.png" width="15" height="15" alt="wink" /></p><p>And I definitely don&#039;t have a victim metality, I&#039;m just trying to be realistic. I think it basically comes down to what we&#039;ve said about the level playing field. </p><p>Now if everyone on the planet was a fully souled human, and there were no psychopaths in are midst, then I would probably support your proposals.</p><p>But to use your own words against you:</p><p>&quot;The biggest downfall of many people is that they don&#039;t realize that not everybody is really, well, a human.&nbsp; They mistakenly believe that everybody is on the same level, with the same potential, because we&#039;re never taught anything different.&nbsp; Or it&#039;s a case of &quot;I want to see the good in everybody!&quot;&nbsp; Well, hate to break it to them, but that&#039;s naive. &quot;</p><p>And there&#039;s the problem.</p><p>So what would be an ideal third way, given that your proposals are too extreme and unworkable for this reality, and the system we currently have is far from ideal?</p><p>Well I definitely believe in the idea of being a sovereign individual. I think it&#039;s ridiculous that people are effectively &#039;owned&#039; by the country they are born in. It&#039;s particularly bad for American citizens who have to pay taxes back to America no matter where in the world they live. Clearly things like that should change.</p><p>I recommend joining the Sovereign Life newsletter written by David MacGregor because he writes about these very issues every month and he&#039;s written some very interesting articles and come up with some nice proposals that I definitely do think are very workable.</p><p>Here&#039;s an article he wrote a few months back, and I definitely like the idea of this:</p><div class="quotebox"><cite>David MacGregor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><strong>The &quot;Singapore&quot; Factor: Towards Anarchy and the Market Order</strong></p><p>A proper definition of anarchy is: 1) the absence of government, and 2) a political theory opposed to government.</p><p>That begs the question, &quot;what is government?&quot; Government is the POLITICAL means of social organisation and control - the political means of imposing order.</p><p>Anarchy does not mean NO order, it simply means no &quot;political&quot; <br />order.</p><p>You can have order without a government - as in the way a company is run. If you work for Microsoft, or Ford, then you are working for an organisation. It is orderly. There are rules. The big difference is that you do not have to work for such a company if it is not to your liking. But once you sign on to it, you must either abide by its internal regulations or resign (or be fired). <br />In other words, order - but not by government, by mutual consent.</p><p>Similarly, if you have purchased an apartment in a large complex, then you will have run into what is sometimes called the Body Corporate. Essentially, most freehold residential complexes are run by elected representatives of the owners - who set various rules and regulations to produce the best outcomes for those who live there.</p><p>Once again, there is order - but no government.</p><p>Government is the POLITICAL means of achieving order. The market is the VOLUNTARY means of achieving order. </p><p>The political process is entirely different from the market process. In a political order the power derives from the use of force.&nbsp; In an market order the power derives from the voluntary consent of the participants.</p><p>So, to use the Body Corporate analogy again, if you buy a condo in a classy complex - which has the rule that you cannot make undue noise after 11 pm - then the Body Corporate will enforce those rules. However, you agreed to them when you first purchased your property, as part of the contract you entered into.</p><p>It is this important element of &quot;agreement&quot; that is missing in the political ordering of things. Things happen WITHOUT your agreement. And they happen to YOU!</p><p>Oh sure, this is glossed over by reference to voting every three or four years. But this is a joke obviously, because you know that even if you vote, it makes no difference - especially if who you voted for doesn&#039;t gain power. Political voting is a charade, designed to give the cloak of respectability to an otherwise thoroughly despicable practice - rule by the mob.</p><p>And you certainly didn&#039;t enter into any &quot;contract&quot; with your existing nation of birth. Socialists like to talk of the &quot;social contract&quot;, but that&#039;s just a red herring. To be born somewhere is a complete accident on your part, and cannot be construed as some sort of contract.</p><p>Political order is ultimately the rule of brute force. Market order is ultimately the rule of agreement and contract. </p><p>But what if someone reneges on an agreement or contract? In a market order, such situations would be resolved by arbitration and enforced, if necessary, by resort to various agents of the arbitration company. </p><p>When it comes to getting things done in this world, the verdict is already in. The market order delivers the goods - in easily verifiable abundance. Whereas the political order fails miserably. Soviet Russia and Maoist China, as the most extreme versions of the political order, presented irrefutable evidence of this fact.</p><p>Just one visit to your local supermarket should disabuse you of any notion that the government could do it better. Or another example: who would you trust to manufacture your next new computer - the government or a company of your own choosing? </p><p>One of the perennial rebuttals of anarchy - or no political order<br />- is that when push comes to shove, a third party must be able to intervene to enforce contracts and civil behaviour, if the parties to such an agreement cannot resolve a dispute. And in a market order society this would be done by the private agents of law and order - including insurance and security companies and private arbitration courts.</p><p>The sceptic will then say that this would lead to multiple jurisdictions - where you may have your own legal environment and I may have mine - and never the twain shall meet.</p><p>But this is a straw man argument - because we already have a working model of such competing jurisdictions in the world today. I&#039;m talking about the world community of nations. Each nation is a sovereign jurisdiction - and a crime in one may not be a crime in another. However, when it comes to major crimes, you&#039;d be surprised (or maybe you wouldn&#039;t) how different nations and cultures agree - as in response to murder, rape and robbery, for example.</p><p>Nations get over this &quot;problem&quot; of different jurisdictions by setting up various forms of co-operation - a perfectly natural thing to do. That&#039;s why we have such things as extradition orders, Interpol etc.</p><p>If you are truly against the &quot;anarchy&quot; of multiple sovereign nation states - then you have nowhere to go, except to endorse and work for a WORLD government. Just one government. Just one jurisdiction. </p><p>Sure, there are many supporters of world government. But I believe that no thinking freedom lover would countenance such an idea. Why? Because a WORLD government would be a magnification of all the bad things that arise from government. Things like graft and corruption; inefficiency; incompetence, cronyism; inertia; and the sheer horror of having nowhere else to run, should you be targeted for any reason whatsoever. And I haven&#039;t even mentioned taxes!</p><p>But that&#039;s the choice. Either we &quot;progress&quot; to the logical endpoint of political governance - World Government - or we think outside the square and start to question the very notion of political order itself.</p><p>Just as the worst scenario is for us to move to a world state, the best scenario is for states to actually become smaller and smaller. This would increase the effective competition between states, and make possible the introduction of a true market order.</p><p>The template for such a type of order is already in place - the corporation. And by that I mean a company made up of CEO, Board of Directors and Shareholders.</p><p>As an interesting aside, it&#039;s worth noting that Hong Kong&#039;s political leader is actually called Chief Executive Officer. A sign of things to come perhaps?</p><p>The successful city-states of the world (including Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai, Monaco, Liechtenstein, and certain existing tax havens etc.) point to a new way of doing things. They are small enough to be flexible in this fast changing age. They are small enough to be responsive to the actual wishes of people. They are small enough to get things done. And interestingly enough, they are all low tax jurisdictions - meaning they are fundamentally more competitive than the behemoth &quot;old world&quot; nation states - like the USA, UK, France and Germany etc. </p><p>In fact, both Singapore and Dubai present an even closer model to the idea of a &quot;corporation&quot;. Both have been created by the vision and single-mindedness of individuals - benevolent &quot;dictators&quot; if you will. Perhaps they were precursors of the CEOs of the city states of the future.</p><p>Imagine this FUTURE scenario: </p><p>You are an IT professional and have been considering seeing the world while you work. So you check out the many citizenship opportunities on offer. Basically, they mostly work the same - if you purchase a property in a particular city state, then you not only gain citizenship, but also become a shareholder. And if you don&#039;t want to become a citizen, you can always just become a resident, by taking out a lease on an existing property.</p><p>The internet has specific search engines designed for citizenship and residency searches - where you can do in-depth analysis of what each city state has to offer, and the cost of entry. It&#039;s fascinating stuff - like shopping for a new house or car!</p><p>These rapidly expanding city states are the &quot;talk of the town&quot;. <br />Not only do they have very low or non-existent levies, they also offer real benefits - and come in all flavours. But more importantly, they are causing a revolution in the way people think of themselves - and the very notion of &quot;nations&quot;. </p><p>The economic impact of the emerging city states has been profound and has literally caused other old-world states to sit up and take notice. They can&#039;t afford not to - as they&#039;ve witnessed an ever-growing &quot;brain drain&quot; to these upstart micro-nations.</p><p>The engine of their success is their very smallness, their economic management and style of leadership. Each of these city states is run like a modern corporation - with a CEO, CFO, Board of Directors - and with every property owner as a shareholder.</p><p>No more &quot;elections&quot; like in the old days - where politics was the name of the game, with different parties promising to benefit various segments of the population. This way of doing things had economically ruined the old world - which came crashing down in the wake of the &quot;Great Crash of 2007&quot;. That was when the USA defaulted on its immense indebtedness and dragged the rest of the world into a widespread economic collapse. </p><p>It was like the Berlin Wall coming down. Suddenly, the pent-up frustrations of millions of people was released. New ways of doing things seemed the order of the day - and those nations which had remained solvent, small and flexible were first off the starting blocks of a true &quot;new world order&quot; - the market order. </p><p>Suddenly, politics, like socialism before it, was reviled and blamed for all the misery. People, looking for a new way forward, simply had to look with their eyes, as nimble city states surged forward - putting in place new ways of governance, and new ways for people to economically prosper. Being a shareholder of such a state was a vastly more inviting prospect than being a tax slave of some economic basket case! </p><p>It was like attracting bees to a honey pot. The motivated, able, talented of the world saw the advantages immediately - and from the ashes of the collapsed nation states rose the phoenix of the new world.</p><p>Of course, the &quot;old&quot; nations took some while to readjust - being monolithic and overly large - like dinosaurs from a previous age.<br />But once their inhabitants got wind of what was going on in the world, the demand for immediate decentralisation got under way.</p><p>The USA reverted to its separate states - with the collapse of the federal government. And moreover, within such states, various cities peeled off on their own. </p><p>Europe was the same. The machinery of the EU simply could not compete with the economic tigers of the &quot;new&quot; world - and reverted back to its individual components, and then again into smaller units. It was the same the world over. Some countries tried to hold it together, with political repression and violence. But their cause was lost, and it was only a matter of time before the tide of history swept the old power structures away.</p><p>It was like a tsunami, flushing out all the dross from the chaos of the so-called democratic age of the nation states. One minute there were presidents, prime ministers, parliaments, dictators, and other assorted political parasites. Next minute they were out of a job - with nowhere to go. It happened that fast.</p><p>Meanwhile, your internet search is turning up some interesting possibilities. In fact, the choice is quite overwhelming. So you simply home in on what sort of things you like to do, what sort of culture you want to mingle with, and what sort of work opportunities you want to get involved with. </p><p>You find a great &quot;rent-to-buy&quot; opportunity in Dubai, which will allow you immediate residency and benefits, with the future option to buy the property you were renting - if you wanted to become a shareholder/citizen. This way, at least, you can test the waters of this booming city state and decide if it is for you in the long term. And if it isn&#039;t, no problem, back to that internet search again. </p><p>Yes, the future looks bright - and the world is literally your oyster!</p><p>And back to the present.</p><p>The political order is crumbling. The cracks are showing. The fingers are in the dikes - attempting to thwart the inevitable.<br />And those with a vested interest in the status quo are working their big fat arses off to ensure their snouts remain in the public trough. But it&#039;s only a matter of time.</p><p>Yours in freedom</p><p>David MacGregor</p></blockquote></div><p>Join Sovereign Life at <a href="http://www.sovereignlife.com/">http://www.sovereignlife.com/</a></p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Ayahuasca]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.noblerealms.org/profile.php?id=165</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2005-08-20T12:51:10Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21772#p21772</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21761#p21761" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>On a ps sidenote, to add something else to my closing comments, and further highlight what I think is SUCH an important point about life here in 3D, after I signed out I thought of a line from the movie &quot;Labyrinth.&quot;&nbsp; &nbsp;In regards to the Labyrinth, Toggle the troll critter tells Sarah <strong>&quot;You take too many things for granted!&quot;</strong>&nbsp; The context being how Sarah was taking the limitations from the &quot;real&quot; world and applying them to the labyrinth.&nbsp; &nbsp;She took the rules of the labyrinth for granted...so much so that she didn&#039;t even realize it had any!&nbsp; &nbsp;She just assumed the labyrinth operated the same way as the real world, because the real world was all she knew.&nbsp; <em>If all we&#039;ve been shown is one way, it&#039;s understandable if we can&#039;t envision another.</em>&nbsp; &nbsp; </p><p>In the labyrinth, nothing is what it appears to be.&nbsp; The same goes for this world, and all the rules and laws of &quot;reality&#039; that we&#039;ve been fed for eons.&nbsp; &nbsp;We&#039;re so programmed about how things &quot;are&quot; and &quot;should be&quot; with society and people and spirituality that we can no longer imagine or believe in any other way.&nbsp; We&#039;ve been cut off from greater truths........but it&#039;s not hopeless.&nbsp; We can reconnect and open our eyes.&nbsp; <img src="https://forum.noblerealms.org/img/smilies/smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="smile" /></p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[lyra]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.noblerealms.org/profile.php?id=23</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2005-08-20T03:25:17Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21761#p21761</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21758#p21758" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think there&#039;s a problem in that what you&#039;re proposing pretty much amounts to the same thing as looking the other way and not trying to stop people (at least in this present Earth reality we&#039;re living in).</p></blockquote></div><p>How so?&nbsp; &nbsp;This is the same thing manyeagles pretty much wrote, which left me frowning at my computer screen wondering where she got that from.&nbsp; !&nbsp; &nbsp;I explained myself when she said this though.</p><br /><div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If only because the majority of people are completely incapable of dealing with violent criminals and pyschopaths.</p></blockquote></div><p>But are people really?&nbsp; &nbsp;You&#039;d be surprised what we&#039;re capable of.&nbsp; &nbsp;People think they&#039;re not capable of much until put into a trying situation.</p><br /><div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And I know that violent criminals and psychopaths are in the minority, however I still think there&#039;s a significant enough number of them for them to cause the complete breakdown of society if you were to remove all forms of law and order.</p></blockquote></div><p>That&#039;s postulation though. It&#039;s worst case scenario pessimism I think.&nbsp; Maybe things wouldn&#039;t be this way.&nbsp; We&#039;ll never know though, because we&#039;ll never be given the chance. </p><p>Like the article that SS Elephant recommended, which I posted, we&#039;re conditioned our entire lives to be afraid of everything, including each other, and to see the worst in everybody and society.&nbsp; We&#039;re shackled with this, which I would say almost constitutes emotional abuse.&nbsp; &nbsp;</p><p>On the other hand, I can see how you and others are right in this feeling, because there are some pretty horrific things going on in places such as Africa for instance.&nbsp; There is one example of total lawlessness, where gangs of psychopaths roam the land, literally raping, pillaging and plundering their way from one village to the next.&nbsp; Burning, looting, and murdering everything and everyone in their path.</p><br /><div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It&#039;s nice and easy to say &#039;lets get rid of all the police&#039;, however, if you went out for the day and then came home and found a gang of violent career criminals, armed to the teeth, had moved into your house while you were out, I&#039;m pretty sure you&#039;d wish there was some form of police or authority to help you get your house and possessions back. Otherwise you&#039;d be pretty much screwed - You&#039;d probably have to kiss goodbye to absolutely everything you own. Of course you could take them all on yourself, in any way you see fit, but chances are high that you&#039;d get killed in the process.</p></blockquote></div><p>Ahhhhhhhh.........!&nbsp; (and I was smiling and almost laughed outloud when I read this, not out of meanness, but amusement and genuine giddiness, cause I&#039;m such a dork like that!&nbsp; <img src="https://forum.noblerealms.org/img/smilies/smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="smile" />&nbsp; ) This is the entire reason I started this thread, I wanted to see debate like this, with people throwing their ideas out there.&nbsp; &nbsp;I wanted to see how people think, what ideas / arguments / rebuttles people would come up with, how people would react....what possible limitations in thinking might pop up.&nbsp; So to me, reading this, it&#039;s perfect.&nbsp; &nbsp;</p><p>Here&#039;s why I&#039;m giddy....we all have our programming.&nbsp; We all have our ingrained roadblocks and ideas of limitations instilled within us, no matter how awake or freespirited we are.&nbsp; So, <strong>what you have to remember is if we lived in a world where it was every man taking care of himself, then the way in which we would live our lives would be completely different from anything we do now.</strong></p><p>See, you&#039;re taking something you would do now, a present mindset and way of being under the present circumstances, (casually going out, leaving your home unattended and unprotected, then casually meandering back home again, lalala expecting everything to be hunky dory, but WHOOPS!&nbsp; Oh no!! The big bad rapists and murderes showed up to loot and pillage while I was at McDonalds!&nbsp; Ahhh!) and placing that into a world context that is nothing like these present circumstances.&nbsp; But do you really think that if the world was lawless, every man for himself, that one would actually leave their home unattended and unprotected?&nbsp; </p><p>No!&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; Because the entire culture and society would be different.&nbsp; Nothing would be done the way it&#039;s done now.&nbsp; People would have no choice but to change and toughen up.&nbsp; &nbsp;Which means somebody would always be at your house guarding it and looking out for it at all times, if the area you lived in was really that bad and required it.&nbsp; &nbsp;It&#039;s the smart thing to do.&nbsp; &nbsp;You would be someone who is in shape, who can fight and protect yourself.....the way humans used to be.&nbsp; &nbsp; You would be armed because you might need that.....the way humans used to be too.&nbsp; &nbsp;It would be a completely different world, a different mindset.&nbsp; You&#039;d be ready to take care of yourself and your home. </p><br /><br /><div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And just what could the average person possibly do to protect themselves from the threats of a psychopathic killer? There is basically no solution other than for them to resort to violence or murder themselves (because moving to a new place isn&#039;t a solution if the pyschopath is also stalking them). What you&#039;re effectively proposing is a society where you either kill or be killed.</p></blockquote></div><p>Well yeah, pretty much, if that&#039;s what it came down to.&nbsp; &nbsp;On a predominatly new age forum this idea doesn&#039;t go over very well I&#039;m sure.&nbsp; I know some people are reading this and cringing, going, &quot;But I want to just live in love and light and ascend to 4th density with the Goddess and play harps and sit on a cloud and cavort with the fairies and rainbows all day!&quot;&nbsp; <img src="https://forum.noblerealms.org/img/smilies/big_smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="big_smile" />&nbsp; (not you Ayahuasca, I&#039;m just imaging what half the forum is probably thinking when they read this thread, haha)&nbsp; But yes, sometimes in life you have to defend yourself, and it aint pretty. </p><p>We hear stories all the time, nearly every DAY of people who are attacked and / or killed because they didn&#039;t know how to take care of themselves, didn&#039;t know self defense, <strong>and were so conditioned by the law that you can&#039;t do something to your attacker for fear of going to jail yourself</strong> that they wound up a victim.&nbsp; What kind of a world do we live in???&nbsp; We can&#039;t pretend that there aren&#039;t predators out there.&nbsp; &nbsp;<strong>There are predators in nearly every density, it&#039;s not just in 3rd.&nbsp; So we need to learn how to deal with that and how to defend ourselves.</strong>&nbsp; &nbsp;So many people play the victim, the doormat, the prey.&nbsp; &nbsp;Fighting back and even standing up for themselves make them cringe.&nbsp; Forget the idea of being put in a situation where someone is going to kill you so you better do something, and do it fast.&nbsp; &nbsp;</p><p>But again, I did also mention in my opening posts, which montalk elaborated on, the idea of learning how to intend for these things to not happen in the first place.&nbsp; This is VERY important here, and it&#039;s being overlooked I think by everybody.&nbsp; Nobody&#039;s touching this concept as far as I&#039;ve seen other than montalk and I.</p><br /><div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don&#039;t know about anyone else here, but I don&#039;t ever want to live in a society where extreme violence or murder is my only form of protection against the lowlife scum that currently populate this planet.</p></blockquote></div><p>Ahh, limitations in thinking again!&nbsp; <img src="https://forum.noblerealms.org/img/smilies/smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="smile" />&nbsp; See my previous comment.&nbsp; The mysterious third option that&#039;s always hidden from us.&nbsp; It doesn&#039;t have to be a black or white, either or choice.&nbsp; It never is.&nbsp; &nbsp;I think it&#039;s safe to say that if you&#039;ve found your way here to NR, then you&#039;re somebody who&#039;s ready to take personal power to the next level, which means remembering who you are, connecting with your higher self, and intending for how you want your life to go, and drawing to yourself the protection and circumstances that you need.&nbsp; &nbsp;We might not necessarily find ourselves having to muck about in the types of situations you outlined.&nbsp; </p><br /><div class="quotebox"><cite>Ayahuasca wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Overall, I certainly agree with the idea of self government in principle but I don&#039;t see how any society could ever work that way when you have a violent psychopaths running around on the loose with no realistic way of dealing with them.</p></blockquote></div><p>I personally believe it&#039;s because we&#039;ve been brainwashed not see any other reality possibilities - <em>they have literally programmed all other options out of us and&nbsp; reduced our consciousness capabilities.</em>&nbsp; &nbsp;Think of our sight / vision -&nbsp; We can&#039;t see very far away with great detail, like birds.&nbsp; Can&#039;t see in the dark like cats and owls.&nbsp; &nbsp;We can only see the regular spectrum of colors.&nbsp; Can&#039;t see infrared.&nbsp; Can&#039;t see ultraviolet.&nbsp; Can&#039;t see x-rays.&nbsp; Can&#039;t see other densities, entities or even see our own damn auras and chakras!!!&nbsp; (most people, anyway.)&nbsp; &nbsp;<strong>So not only is our physical vision severely limited, but so is our entire idea about how reality could and should be.</strong>&nbsp; How do we know things would have to be the way you outlined?&nbsp; &nbsp;Would it really?&nbsp; Or is that just programming? </p><p>Food for thought!!!&nbsp; <img src="https://forum.noblerealms.org/img/smilies/smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="smile" /></p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[lyra]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.noblerealms.org/profile.php?id=23</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2005-08-20T02:54:55Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21758#p21758</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21755#p21755" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Here&#039;s a few more thoughts on the subject...</p><p>Basically I think a world without laws in this realm is an impossibility, because here&#039;s what would happen if you removed all forms of official government and law &amp; order:</p><p>You would find groups of people coming together to form their own communities, but they would be fully entitled to agree on and create their own laws within that community, and I&#039;m sure nearly every community would do that to some degree. Of course anybody that didn&#039;t agree with those laws would be free to leave that community and move somewhere else.</p><p>I think you would then find about 3 main types of communities would develop. </p><p>You would have intentional spiritual or religious communities who probably wouldn&#039;t have any laws as such, but anybody who refused to live a peaceful existance would be forced out somehow. </p><p>You would then have non-spiritual communities, of mostly peace-loving people. However, I think you would find that most of these types of communities would probably try to emulate present societal conditions. They would have their own community laws, and then some way of enforcing those laws. </p><p>These communities may even have their own prisons as that would be within their right to build them, as nobody in the world could enforce against those prisons. These would be by far the most common types of communities and people either live there or they don&#039;t based on whether they agree with the rules laid out by that community. Some communities would probably have strict laws and strict law enforcement, while others would be far more liberal and relaxed. People would basically choose the community that suited them most, or live isolated outside a community.</p><p>Finally you would have completely lawless communities, probably made up of mostly violent criminals and psychopaths that aren&#039;t allowed to live anywhere else and have been forced into the wilderness. Although I think community is probably completely the wrong word here. zoo perhaps?</p><p>The problem with this type of world is that eventually you would probably end up with a similar type of world to what we already have, such is human nature.</p><p>Communities would keep expanding to accomodate more people, and then you&#039;d have some communities having disputes over land ownership. If communities then started to feel threatened then there&#039;s suddenley a need for somekind of military, and then you have a threat of war. </p><p>The lust for power will never disappear amongst certain humans in this realm, so eventually you&#039;d have some of the most democratic communities becoming corrupted by small power-crazed groups (cabals) or individuals who would ultimately seek to install somekind of dictatorship with them in charge. Then, because of their psychopathic nature they would probably seek to take over or destroy other nearby peaceful loving communities.</p><p>And then you&#039;re right back where you started! Sad, but unfortunately very true probably.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Ayahuasca]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.noblerealms.org/profile.php?id=165</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2005-08-19T23:18:12Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21755#p21755</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21754#p21754" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>lyra wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think some people might be misunderstanding what my initial point was in this thread.&nbsp; It was <em>never</em> about looking the other way, or allowing people to hurt children.&nbsp; &nbsp;I never said that.&nbsp; &nbsp;I proposed the idea of <strong>individuals being responsible for handling society&#039;s criminals, versus a police force.</strong>&nbsp; If somebody victimizes you in some way, whatever way that may be.........it would be up to you as to whether or not you choose to do something about it.&nbsp; (extend that to protecting your family.)</p></blockquote></div><p>I think there&#039;s a problem in that what you&#039;re proposing pretty much amounts to the same thing as looking the other way and not trying to stop people (at least in this present Earth reality we&#039;re living in). If only because the majority of people are completely incapable of dealing with violent criminals and pyschopaths. </p><p>And I know that violent criminals and psychopaths are in the minority, however I still think there&#039;s a significant enough number of them for them to cause the complete breakdown of society if you were to remove all forms of law and order.</p><p>It&#039;s nice and easy to say &#039;lets get rid of all the police&#039;, however, if you went out for the day and then came home and found a gang of violent career criminals, armed to the teeth, had moved into your house while you were out, I&#039;m pretty sure you&#039;d wish there was some form of police or authority to help you get your house and possessions back. Otherwise you&#039;d be pretty much screwed - You&#039;d probably have to kiss goodbye to absolutely everything you own. Of course you could take them all on yourself, in any way you see fit, but chances are high that you&#039;d get killed in the process.</p><p>And just what could the average person possibly do to protect themselves from the threats of a psychopathic killer? There is basically no solution other than for them to resort to violence or murder themselves (because moving to a new place isn&#039;t a solution if the pyschopath is also stalking them). What you&#039;re effectively proposing is a society where you either kill or be killed. </p><p>I don&#039;t know about anyone else here, but I don&#039;t ever want to live in a society where extreme violence or murder is my only form of protection against the lowlife scum that currently populate this planet.</p><p>However, after saying all that, I&#039;m certainly not advocating the current form of government or law enforcement we have to put up with. Even in 3D things could easily be a whole lot different and be far less oppressive, and therefore probably far more effective. You could certainly abolish all forms of big government and things would probably be a whole lot better. </p><p>I think all societies and communities (or certainly larger ones) need at least some form of basic governance providing that it&#039;s truly democratic, fully transparent, and no one person is given too much power or responsibility. Even if it&#039;s just to manage basic, but essential, services like trash collection, sewage management and all the things that are essential for a large town or city to function without falling into complete disrepair.</p><p>I still maintain that in present earth conditions, you would need some form of basic law and order, and that no mainstream society could function effectively without one.&nbsp; Overall, I certainly agree with the idea of self government in principle but I don&#039;t see how any society could ever work that way when you have a violent psychopaths running around on the loose with no realistic way of dealing with them.</p><p>Andy</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Ayahuasca]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.noblerealms.org/profile.php?id=165</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2005-08-19T21:59:48Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21754#p21754</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Jury duty, laws, and the notion of punishment]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21746#p21746" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the clarification,&nbsp; <img src="https://forum.noblerealms.org/img/smilies/wink.png" width="15" height="15" alt="wink" /></p><p>It&#039;s just I get pretty emotional about this particular issue.&nbsp; BTW, the latest trend in the republic of Socal land is refering to the more unsavory types is refering to them as &quot;individuals&quot; who are increasingly given a &quot;whateveeer&quot; (valleygirl voice and mindset) acknowlegment.&nbsp; Apathy kicked up a notch so to speak.&nbsp; The sugar coating just gags me to no end&nbsp; &nbsp;<img src="https://forum.noblerealms.org/img/smilies/sad.png" width="15" height="15" alt="sad" />.&nbsp; </p><p>Oh well,&nbsp; it&#039;s a full moon-lizzies are doing overtime, and hoping to get second helpings on loosh fare-huh?</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[manyeagles]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.noblerealms.org/profile.php?id=88</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2005-08-19T16:28:48Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21746#p21746</id>
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