That was interesting GibbleTronic.   Then, can the superego and the ID exist without the ego?  Or when the ego disappears, is what is, that which remains?  And as the ego goes, are we nearer to God?

I think as far as our spiritual growth and awareness goes, our ego is the only important part of the puzzle, the other parts having purpose only as long as the parent ego exists, or if it's gone, if they're able to attach themselves to some other ego/entity. This is why I think some learned behaviors (esp generational child abuse) have some additional attachments that are passed along unless those who are susceptable to them are able to find ways to get rid of them. I've heard stories about how sons taking on the faces of dead fathers/uncles while revealed to be in this sort of state. Some might see this sort of thing and call it a vengeful spirit, but I see it as an generational ID/superego manifestation that is desperate to remain viable.

IMO, The key isn't really to eliminate the ego, since that's where all the richness of our individuality is, but to prepare it for a better understanding of higher STO principles. The trick is to enable it to observe and choose without interference from the superego/ID. Why we experience difficulty in doing this is because our physical bodies still experience reality in 3D, and most higher STO principles are not linear, so we have to "unlearn" a lot of stuff before passing on, but once that occurs, the ID and superego cannot hold onto you UNLESS you allow them to.

3 things relevant to this subject: ego, superego, and ID.

To me, Superego is defined as the impossible level of expectations that serves to propell humanity forward. In it's positive aspect, it provides a framework for inspirational dreams and is a wonderful drive for greater progress, but it in some people it just dominates them to the point where it's like the veteran marathon runner trying to encourage a grade school kid to keep up halfway through a 27 mile race.

ID is the stuff that's hardwired in to everyone which serves as a focus of the extreme justifications that everyone uses to validate their lives. The ID is ALWAYS in your corner looking out for your interests, but it completely lacks any semblance of morality, empathy, mercy, or restraint. The ID in it's positive aspect makes sure that your needs are being met, but in all cases only the self matters, so all other considerations are only relevant when considering how they will impact with the self. Left uncontrolled, the person becomes sadistic, manipulative, and utterly psychopathic. Think of the main character "Alex" in the early portions of Stanley Kubrick's "A Clockwork Orange" for a perfect example of someone whose ID has run amok.

Between these two extremes, the ego is the sense of self-identity that gets hit by both sides. The superego insists that the ego perform impossible goals and holds itself to unrealistic ideals, while the ID appeals to the base desire to indulge in what it defines as "pleasure" at the expense of everything and everybody else.

Where I'm going with all this is that I totally agree that enlightenment requires the suspension of the ego, since our understanding of reality must be suppressed in order to be appropiately receptive to alternate realities. This isn't nearly as hard as it sounds and most people would want this anyways. The real difficulty is getting the superego and the ID to shut up so the ego can take a break and learn something new - that's the hard part.

http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/ … y-and-you/

"...Interpreting Carlos’ suggestion though, the ego serves as the representative of the self. It is sort of a projection or a vehicle for the self to act upon the world. But many people get into the situation where they mistake the vehicle for the reality of the self. This happens while driving too. If someone backs into you in a parking lot, you say, “That bastard hit me!" You don’t say, “That bastard hit my car!" You sort of naturally extend your self-consciousness to include your vehicle. And it’s not a bad thing; it helps you operate more seemlessly. So imagine if you were always in your car your whole life, and that was the only way you’d ever experienced the world (Sort of Plato’s allegory of the cave, but with updated imagery). What’s that Stephen King book where a car comes to life?"

We are all slices of God.

If God is infinite, that means it is All-Encompassing.  There is no such thing as Infinity-plus-one.

So the only unworthiness comes from choosing to continue to focus on STS, petty ego illusions that entail a rejection of the Love of The Great Spirit.  (The fall from Grace, which may be a necessary part of this earth game, a necessary experience in order to learn to distinguish between ego and Higher Self, between illusion and reality.)  This will just continue, it seems to me, until some occurrance or realization snaps that Ego-Entity out of illusion and attachment to that illusion.

Because merely seeing beyond the illusion is insufficient.  One has to let go of one's attachment to it, and paradoxically this is so difficult even when we know the illusion is unbeneficial towards us....
it's an addiction that's hard to drop:
The addiction to Ego's illusion that I am, in effect, "God", separate from all else....

In the Bhagavad Gita it is explained that one of the last stages before Enlightenment is to get caught in the Ego's trap that it is God.  The Gita reckons that the only way to get out of this trap is with a Guru, since, as someone stated earlier on this thread, it's nearly impossible to dissolve the Ego on your own since the Ego will always circuitously bring us back to justifications of its existence and importance.

So either a powerful Guru or simple Grace can do it....so some Sages spontaneously awakened while most of us need more pushing and prodding.

Let's try to distinguish between Judgment (which brings on emotions and makes the mind noisy, labelling good and bad) versus Discrimination (which is detached, calm, observing cause and effect).

I have to run now but had to put two more cents in after finishing reading the other comments.

It's interesting to see how the Judging functions.  When I don't know how to confront a situation or person, I tend to judge it or them rather than just admitting that I am overwhelmed.  It's easier to focus on someone else's lack of enlightenment and dismiss them rather than to just slow down and try to figure out a more effective way to communicate with that person.

I think discrimination is necessary (to figure out what is beneficial or not) but judgment usually just freezes things up.

Wow...I am at a very similar point right now.  You gave words to what was wordless for me.  It's when I am overwhelmed (with emotion) that I most often jump into judgment!

Thanks...!

**

As far as the duality at work here...That the ego is both necessary and unnecessary...  I would add that is "necessary" in the sense that (maybe) it is needed in order for spirit/soul to interact effectively inside linear orders of reality.  But, perhaps, this limit of localization within linearality is all that is "necessary" as far as ego goes--and, even then, only necessary with other soul/spirit that is playing by the rules of linearality.

I don't really know what I just said...

In conclusion, I call into question the term ego because, through general usage, it’s become insufficiently clear whether it is referring to a neutral psychological mechanism, actions with negative orientation, or a thing that is inherently negative.  I call it into question because I believe, through conscious or unconscious manipulation, that the term ego has been used to enforce a belief in an inherent negativity in humankind.   I don’t–at current–have or necessarily want to have a new, stipulative definition for the concept encompassed by ego–either the “neutral mechanism”  or the service-to-self behaviors commonly called “ego.”   I do, however, want to commit myself (and offer the challenge to any who are willing) to no longer use the term ego to further the misunderstanding of humans as naturally deserving of judgment.  Furthermore, I put forth the idea that we can step out of the “Original Sin”  judging mentality without having to imagine ourselves as dual or as multifaceted with one part of us that is unworthier than the rest. 

    Is it possible to understand ourselves without judgment?  Can we understand the concept implied by the term "ego" as something that is not a hindrance, but just another part of ourself?

If I cared about degrees I would encourage you to write a PhD thesis on this.

This was a very insightful post, particularly good to think about operational versus conceptual.

But the way you linked the muddied-waters of the term Ego with the reinforcing of the idea of Original Sin and judgment is BRILLIANT.

THANK YOU.  This was so helpful and useful.  Posts like these make me so grateful for Noble Realms.

I don't believe spiritual truths need to be presented in such complicated, convoluted, dry boring wordy ways.   Too many sources over complicate stuff.   Spiritual truths should ideally be simple and straight forward.   Intellectuals LOVE to muddle it all up to sound like they're all smart and important n' suff.   

Lyra-
For me, this has been the blessing of attempting to write a screenplay....it has to be CONCISE!!!

I have had a couple experiences with Buddhists being way too MENTAL and talking AROUND the truth.....it becomes mental masturbation. 
(Incidentally, have also met very insightful Buddhists, this is not a condoning of the entire institution of Buddhism!)

Shut-up and experience it!  : )

The rule of "read what excites you" has served me so well.  It has helped me drop a lot of the programming about what I "should" read....if we followed that programming we'd all still be struggling through some really long dry English assignments from decades ago....

Also, some works that years ago were too convoluted or boring or dry to me have now become exciting and accessible.....I just wasn't ready for them back then.  I'm glad I didn't force it because it just wasn't time.  When it is time, it's impossible to put the book down. 

Our school systems really do us a great disservice by training us to read what the teacher says is important rather than follow the natural curiosity that will lead us to read the things that we need to.

What?  I have never been self-important!!!  : )

A friend and advisor has recently been trying to encourage me to look at my judgmental-ness.  She gave me an exercise to attempt Neutrality for a week.

It's interesting to see how the Judging functions.  When I don't know how to confront a situation or person, I tend to judge it or them rather than just admitting that I am overwhelmed.  It's easier to focus on someone else's lack of enlightenment and dismiss them rather than to just slow down and try to figure out a more effective way to communicate with that person.

I think discrimination is necessary (to figure out what is beneficial or not) but judgment usually just freezes things up.

Please do forgive my Ego for needing to contribute!

There is a duality at play here.  Ego is both necessary and real, yet unnecessary and illusory.
Also, it is necessary to go back and forth from being Ego-centered and Ego-dissolved. 

The Ego is a necessary Function....

Without the separateness of the Ego-self, we would be one schizophrenic blob, unable to differentiate "My' thoughts from "Your" thoughts.  Ego is a functional tool that allows pieces of consciousness to learn, to observe themselves, to become more discriminating, to keep a record of what has been absorbed....to focus on this lifetime's projects.

However, on another level, the Ego is illusory, and to Identify with it as Real creates suffering.

Ultimately our lives are not our own, but rather these lives belong to the Great Spirit.
Now, to the extent that you dissolve your ego boundaries and illusions and realize that you already are a piece of the Great Spirit anyway, this is not disturbing.  It's just "What Is."

But if you hold tight to these Ego Illusions that your physical body is the real you, or that your consciousness is totally separate and independent from the whole, the idea of being robbed of this identity can be terrifying.

Ego is paradoxical in that it spins stories and leads you to believe that it will make you big and powerful.  Yet in order to realize any big dream, to create anything worthwhile, to come to any profound realizations, to manifest any form of genius, you must dissolve your ego boundaries.

So the Ego tries to convince you to keep it alive at all costs, telling you that this will make you big and powerful.  But it only makes you small and miserable.

The Ego's story is of separateness and independence.  On a certain level you are separate and independent, but only in the larger context of your complete and utter connectedness and dependence on the whole.

Now, this dissolving of boundaries needn't (and indeed, for most of us shouldn't) be permanent.
It's a matter of switching states, a Shamanic skill.  Switching vision.  Taking your 3-D glasses off and on.   There have been humans (Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, the great yogi Patanjali) that spent the majority of their time in totally dissolved states, but then had to re-don their Ego Suits in order to function amongst other humans. 

In order to write scripture and channel wisdom of a high, precise, pure nature, it is necessary to really dissolve ego boundaries and pull from the Higher Totality---the wisdom of All that Is....but then when you're done writing you might have to just go take a walk and talk to some people and go buy groceries and be human and ego-defined again.....

And I suppose it is a function of the temporal Ego-self to be able to then take that insight and put it into Language that is useful in your present time-space....so dissolve the ego to get the wisdom, then filter it through Ego to get it on paper and communicatable.

So the Ego is real yet unreal, necessary yet in the way, beneficial if kept in its place, unbeneficial when out of place.

The Ego is a function that the Self uses (the Self ultimately, it seems, being one Great Self: I-and-I) but should not be mistaken for the Self.

C'est Say What!

Monsieur Rene Descartes,
they theenk he's so smart
cuz he put it so bluntly
"Je pense donc je suis."

I think therefore I am!
Qu'est-ce que c'est? What is this?
I struggle, and struggle, and still I miss the meaning.

As hard as I try,
I can never get why
I can't seem to comprehend this philosophy!

Perhaps if I repeat them often,
his words will make sense?
It's no good.
I lie.
I don't get it.
Here's why:
for me it's
Je suis donc je pense.

(I am, therefore I think) 
[nudge, nudge, wink, wink!]

Silliness aside, I do grok Descartes' take on reality. Still, I prefer mine.  How's that for ego?

He broke down people into 4 types: Awake "Good"/Asleep "Good" and Awake "Evil"/Asleep "Evil."

But your first type, the one who is awake but is too fearful to do anything about it interests me most. 

I have read a lot of Joseph Campbell (mythologist) and he occasionally talks about the person who is called to adventure but refuses the call, or tries to ignore the call.  He writes that once a person is called/awakened, he/she will never be satisfied again with his/her old life and world. 

Light and awakening has a nuclear effect...

Glad to provide some exuberance to your life hehe. I was hoping I was making sense, I have not yet figured it all out but, in about 6 months, I have come from no understanding to what I have written, so this has been great for me to see that I am figuring it out!!!

Glad to see I could impart some energy to you to help you get what you needed.

I don't think you twisted my words at all. I think you get it. I think YOU are onto something when you mention the void created and the energies being different.

Makes me wonder if the three types of people don't stem from this idea:

1)Those that wake up but do nothing because the just stay beat down and empty. They basically give up and don't try.

2)Those that are awake and become STSer's, the ego draws in mass quantities of third density energy, so you get a "feel good rush" BUT you have awareness(though only of the 3rd density) which leads to more self serving tendancies, no matter the appearances. I don't know if this gives direction to your questions on fear and tyranny of the energy field of the ego.

3) Those that are awake and become STA/STOers. They draw in higher energy(4th through 7th density) and have an awareness and proceed with those energies (as you have experienced) of love and forgiveness.

Just some thoughts that have never occurred to me before...who knows.

As you quote above "the ego appears to be a product of fear" The Holographic Universe applies it more to dreams but probably true for our "waking" time too. Ullman(a researcher)theorizes that when we dream, most of us have a natural protective mechanism, that keeps us from coming into contactwith more of the implicate(unseen) order than we can cope with." Makes me wonder even more now, just how much the ego holds us back in the real (explicate) world, I know it does but just how much?

Much thanks to you too dreamosis. Continued success on your walk.