One of the more intriguing ideas I've come across is that WE are the Fallen Ones.

This is the idea behind the concept of "original sin" in Christianity.  Through eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we
plunged into polarity and the matter world, and separated ourselves from the Oneness.  Polarity and sin are the same thing. In this context, though, it is not so much about judgment, but more an acknowledgment that we pay a price for this knowledge (experience) of good and evil. 

And, there's an interesting discussion about all this here from a Theosophical perspective:  http://theosophy.org/tlodocs/SpiritMindandMatter.htm

Excerpt:

Instead of seeing the descent of spirit into matter in terms of some sort of Fall linked to sin, one should come to see human beings as gods who are fallen only in the sense that they have become obscured. They have through the density of matter merely become forgetful. This should be seen as a sacred and sacrificial process necessary for evolution to work itself out fully on the plane of physical matter. To see this, however, is also to understand that there is another side to the process.

    If there is an involution of spirit into matter, there must be an evolution of spirit out of matter which carries with it all beings in a conscious return to the source. This return to the source is enacted at a microcosmic level every time a human being meditates, but it can be done much more self-consciously. To do this, to become one with the true 'Maker' within oneself, one must die to the cries and pleadings, the fascination and noise, of the exterior physical world. The tragedy of many people is that they find no reason to be glamorized by the world, but at the same time they remain terrified of the inner life. They shy away from the lonely abyss of meditation. Fearful of their own fallibility, lacking confidence in themselves and Nature, they are lost between two worlds.

I think that being elevated into becoming God is a foolish trap for those unable to see the possible consequences. If one were to enjoy the company of an unlimited number of ego-perspectives, (the STO plan incorporates this ideal) it could be a wonderful thing. But if one were on top of the mountian all alone, (as required by the STS mentality) after some initial pleasures and score-settling, it would be eternally boring. Where I'm going with this is that someone may have fallen into this trap while completely devoted to the STS mindset, so within this context, our lives may be nothing more than the manefistations of deep madness originating from an uber-STS creature that is suffering from extreme sensory deprivation and social isolation. If you doubt this, consider that if you were in such a pitiful state, how long it would take for you to create an entire reality in your mind to play with in order to have something to do?

Loved the Twilight Zone example, GibbleTronic (though I didn't quote it here). And, it reminds me of what Ra said about planets without polarity, that it was a very unproductive, boring and stagnant situation, not quite the paradise that some might expect.

And, your conjecture above is very interesting, but I don't believe we are simply manifestations of an "uber-STS creature."  We are manifestations of the All and we are the All, which by definition, is not confined to any one orientation or way of being.

That said--many sources such as Ra, Cayce and others do say that the Oneness essentially got bored and wanted some action, so it got the idea to break itself up in to parts and set them free to evolve by making their own freewill choices. The plan was that ultimately all the pieces would be reunited in a much more interesting state, having had all those varied lives and experiences.  Plenty to talk about, for sure.

Jen

That was well put, Cipher One of the more intriguing ideas I've come across is that WE are the Fallen Ones. This makes sense if mankind as a whole can be considered 3D STS -- this world  of killing and eating and consuming and surviving, together with the myths about us once occupying a more exalted spiritual state. The question is which course of experience we as individuals choose next - further falling or a return home. Either way, it is all in the name of experience.

I've had a lot of time to think about this possibility, and I'd like to share some of what I came up with.

Start off with an episode of the Twilight Zone where a small-time criminal (named "Angel") dies and goes to heaven. Everything is perfect, and he can't lose in anything he tries. Initially he enjoys fine clothes, women, food and drink. He gambles and wins every time. Later in the show he starts to become bored and asks his guide if it'd be okay for him to check out the "other place" just for a change of pace. At this point the guide diabolically informs him that this IS the other place and that he gets to live in it - forever.

I think that being elevated into becoming God is a foolish trap for those unable to see the possible consequences. If one were to enjoy the company of an unlimited number of ego-perspectives, (the STO plan incorporates this ideal) it could be a wonderful thing. But if one were on top of the mountian all alone, (as required by the STS mentality) after some initial pleasures and score-settling, it would be eternally boring. Where I'm going with this is that someone may have fallen into this trap while completely devoted to the STS mindset, so within this context, our lives may be nothing more than the manefistations of deep madness originating from an uber-STS creature that is suffering from extreme sensory deprivation and social isolation. If you doubt this, consider that if you were in such a pitiful state, how long it would take for you to create an entire reality in your mind to play with in order to have something to do?

Therefore, it is possible that we ARE just shards of some uber-STS being, which having realized how utterly foolish it's been, is going about trying to find a way to get some company, but isn't quite aware about how to go about it. To make complete redress for all of it's transgressions would be instantly "fatal" so it's trying to ease it's way in one soul at a time. Add into the mix: an immense community of STO beings which are already done with the "I told you so" mental framework, and are now attempting to reunify with this entity. Why they would do this is obvious: they realize that eventually, the way to completion will be in reunification within the STO framework, and as daunting as this task may seem, they have all the time in the universe to achieve it.

I believe in what I experience and I believe in myself to be able to generate experience not agreed upon by previously developed criterion by way of awareness and creativity. Last night I was able to detect the 'feeling' of my friend's ankles just by.. wanting to help and doing it. This friend is on the opposite side of the country, and independant verification of sensations, etc, allowed a real experience. I cannot proove it to anyone else, nor is it important that I do. The fact is since I've been getting more and more capable at energy work, I have healed and 'de-aged' our pet german shephard by about 5 years in two weeks, an old cat now looks about 3 years yonger in 2 weeks (though he's a stubborn old man, I don't expect him to go as fast as the shephard anyway, but trust me, not from lack of trying!) and etc. I have proof in the sense of people who've seen the quick transition, but I could never proove it in a scientifically documented fashion, because my intentions were to DO it, not try and experiement it.

Maybe that one is more proovable, but it is quite suggestive. Let's just say that arthritis that the shephard was suffering from seems to have dissapated into simple tired limbs rather than pain by the way she uses and walks with them now as compared to two weeks ago.

So what I'm trying to say, perhaps, is what must be prooven to all others to be true to the experience of those who are involved in an event? Isn't that a part of the quantum physics theoretical experience? (I've only touched on that in a variety of areas, without actually going into deep investigation)

what I believe but cannot prove is -- It's all an illusion; but the illusion is also a reality.

This thread is delightful, insightful, and inspiring. Thank you to Cameron for starting it, and to All who posted. Merci buckets.

It either inspires or reinforces these random thoughts: about language and colonialization being dangerously restrictive or oppressive; that we are all aspects of the unIversal i-and-I; that we may well be "fallen" (would go a long way to explaining and understanding mucho); that the choices we make are pivotal to our development, and that making/living the correct ones is ultimately what determines our destinies (including other futures); that I don't need or want no second-hand religion, non merci (but that I have nevertheless gleaned much that is good and useful second hand/from others, including religions); that certain ways of certain indigenous peoples, particularly spiritual outlooks/connections seem vastly more civilized, enlightened, and advanced than certain ways of more modern societies; that we are all connected, literally, metaphorically, physically, spiritually, in every imaginable way; that STO and STS "personas" emanate from ONE and the same source; that we are here to learn from and teach/help each other, ultimately towards the same "ends" for all...methinks that the ultimate "objective" is likely unconditional love for All (that's the best, simplest way I can describe it just now).

Btw, this is a particular new-found treasure for me (in the way it's expressed), among many gems I've discovered here:

"Separation and polarisation of our reality was/is the most effective way of keeping us in the dark and chasing our own shadows even if perchance, we stumble into some light. Once we begin to see more of the I in all and the all in I, an integration begins to occur that is more in tune with the rhythmns of life on this planet and the universe at large. "

HalleluJah!

Finally, I believe that my mind is open, but cannot prove it.   And believe that all [my] beliefs, including this one, are wide open to interpretation and change...

Thank YOU

well that doesnt sound very promising...

Yep,

But it contains some interesting baby-terms in this (dirty) bathing water.

Atlantis wrote:

About proving it:

I have a proof in a book (the book says it is) in front of me, but I am (still) not able to understand it.

The book is: Elementary Philosophy of the Modern Rosycross (J. van Rijckenborgh)

So you might say:

I'm busy trying to make a step from believing to knowing for sure with the external help of old esoteric coded works.

The book mentioned is very interesting, but there are to many New Agey disinfo points in it.

The organization connected to Van Rijckenborgh, Lectorium Rosicrucianum, is considered as a very tricky Illuminati base in corrupting and infiltrating esoteric knowledge and old Gnostic texts.

well that doesnt sound very promising...

About proving it:

I have a proof in a book (the book says it is) in front of me, but I am (still) not able to understand it.

The book is: Elementary Philosophy of the Modern Rosycross (J. van Rijckenborgh)

So you might say:

I'm busy trying to make a step from believing to knowing for sure with the external help of old esoteric coded works.

The book mentioned is very interesting, but there are to many New Agey disinfo points in it.

The organization connected to Van Rijckenborgh, Lectorium Rosicrucianum, is considered as a very tricky Illuminati base in corrupting and infiltrating esoteric knowledge and old Gnostic texts.

Having been born into one of these traditional ancient cultures (Xhosa -South Africa) plus having a life experience of the rationalism-led Western model, has helped me enormously in trying to grow my understanding and acceptance of this STS reality. I feel priviledged to have felt the energetic tone of a people that shared in an STO manner because they had a knowledge that doing otherwise was literally a matter of life and death physically and spiritually. It has been bothe diffiuclt and interesting to live on both ends of this spiritual spectrum. V

I was just thinking about a similar idea today....how strange it is to be in it but not of it.  I was going about my business at the post office, etc.  Sometimes people's auras come through very strong, and I recognize that we are communicating on other levels of reality, although they might not consciously know it.  So it's odd to play the 3d game whilst also having awareness in other realms.  Odd to live in the modern world but see through it's paradigm.

I also consciously hold back from making it known that I am seeing these things because it can frighten people or sometimes just invites hostility because they are attached to their 3d reality story--and making mention of things communicated in other realms completely tears that story apart.....

and as time goes on it seems that more is being revealed to me but not too fast.  It's like there are laws of spiritual physics and you aren't given more than you can handle......and I am still working with my training wheels in terms of knowing when to call people out on their illusions versus having the wisdom to know that I should leave them be.

The hardest thing is seeing how it all interrelates, how all the STS behaviors collectively contribute to planetary mediocrity and perhaps human downfall, and feeling unable to really change it all.....

Rambling again but I was compelled to respond.

I think #1 means, there's an all-powerful force in the universe, and #2 means, it's not us.  Or, in other words, we shouldn't act like we're God.  Or, be humble and try to strive for something that is greater than just you or me.

The Bhagavad Gita addresses this issue.  One of the last traps before really attaining true enlightenment (which continues as an unfolding but requires passing a certain "threshold") is the belief that one is God....as opposed to being part of God, in God, I-and-I etc.

The Gita states that it is nearly impossible to get past this stage without a Guru.  I have seen this to be the case.  The Ego takes the beginnings of enlightenment--with its surge of power, insight, light--and turns it into a story of Messiahdom.

I really like the bit in the film "Donnie Darko" when Donnie discusses with his science teacher the possibility that, if one's free will is in alignment with God's will, that one could then see the future.  I believe I started another thread here on that topic.

That is something I believe is true even though I cannot prove it.....yet anyway!  As my will aligns more and more with The Great Spirit and less with my petty selfish delusions that the universe becomes more and more supportive and that my esp, prophetic dreams and other insights increase.  The more I give up my self the greater my Self becomes.

So it's a funny edge because full enlightenment means becoming God/merging with God whilst also realizing that you are not God alone but rather part of God.

Colonization [christianity, judaism, islam] has robbed us of the rights of passage/initiation rights that provided opportunities to experience this truth, first hand.

Because until it is experienced it is not understood.  It remains theoretical.

And so modern man continues to hand his chains from one leader to the next, refusing to take responsibility for self, afraid of his own power.

The more I see this happening around me, the more lonely I feel.  Fortunately I recognize the phenomena and so I return to my faithful knowing in my heart that I am okay and that I am gonna earn the right to leave this planet one day.....and I know that my spirit ancestors are with me, they do make themselves known.

Really, I wonder about what Cipher and Montalk discuss in this thread----the idea that we on earth are the fallen ones.  It seems very plausible indeed! 

I have consciously chosen to align my free will with that of Great Spirit.  And it is often difficult.  I have layers and layers of selfishness to shed.  But that does seem to be an essential part of the experience here: to recognize that we have the choice, and to see the effects of these choices. 

My work right now involves teaching yoga and writing about many of the issues we discuss here.  And I have learned to accept that "good will win over evil, but maybe not in this lifetime."

I may never live to see the fruits of my labor in this body.

I know that the best I can hope for is that maybe some younger versions of me out there in the world will read my essays, see my film, and be uplifted and reassured despite their struggle and loneliness.  As I write, I have in mind an audience full of "me-s" from a few years ago: lost and needing a bit of encouragement.

Is it completely ignorant and silly and naive to think that planetary-wide change is possible?  Are there just too many STS's around, too much delusion?  Is the poison of colonization and man's ego just too powerful?  If that's true, it really does shift my focus and my energies.

For example, I was watching my mother's behavior recently and I just felt really overwhelmed by it.  My new mantra is to focus on the solution, not the problem, so I tried to think of a constructive way to talk to her.....

but how do you address someone's behavior when it is based on a psychological paradigm that starts with totally false premises?  How do you explain to a relative that their whole worldview is f#cked?

This is really off-thread, my apologies!  I'm just in a frustrated mood today.

I think the most important word there Tom, is "choose".  Which is why this kind of forum is very important - to wake individuals up to the endless choices - and indeed the possibility of choice.  I think that was probably one of my greatest first realisations/lessons - that I had CHOICE - over and above what parents, peers, society, religion had dictated to me.

STS and STO so beautifully sum up the paths that individuals have chosen.

Haven

I concur.  I have a few articles on my site - that I cringe a bit when I read now at how 'flowery' they appear.  But the essence of my personal truth is in them which I still believe (which is why I've still got them up in cyberspace). 

One of those articles talks about a return to Christ consciousness - very simplistic, but a starting point I think.  You can find it here: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bazaann/ … /whats.htm - if you like

My own experiences have also been that we have a Christ Consciousness, to which we can return if we keep aligning our thoughs and heart to the Godforce.  Again, its a matter of choice.

God in its all totality wished to experience Itself in every way possible -  as unique individuated sparks (facets)  of consciousness.  So It created individual souls and the universe/s in which to explore every possible facet of existence.

Not to make this a Christian thing, but this is how I've personally experienced (the idea of) Christ, with the exception as to knowing what the ultimate purpose of these sparks is.  I believe in this idea, and even believe that we wouldn't exist without this God-spark.

God in its all totality wished to experience Itself in every way possible -  as unique individuated sparks (facets)  of consciousness.  So It created individual souls and the universe/s in which to explore every possible facet of existence.  Each facet would contain an element of every other facet (the holographic nature that we possess).  But each facet would have one aspect slightly more pronounced than any other facet.

[Sideline thought: So when you meet someone who mirrors an aspect of you that you are getting to know/coming to terms with, they often appear as more of a charicature of that aspect of yourself. That one particular aspect personified, if you like.] 

One aspect of the nature of this universe is duality - black/white, up/down, good/bad, funny/tragic, STS/STO - and yet each of these can only exist while the other is present, as we know.

So the 'fallen ones' are merely "one half" of all of these facets.  They are the ones exploring the STS avenues available to them, while the "other half" of these facets are exploring the STO avenues.

But all of them (us) are a part of the great Cosmic Whole - Godforce experiencing Itself as a miriad of individual sparks of consciousness.  None better or worse than any other.  Just experiencing. The Creator has given us the gift of Life.  The greatest gift we can give the Creator then, is the AWARENESS of this life, for that is what It wantd most of all.  To know Itself as each one of us.

That is why judgement of others is a moot point.

Just a thought

It does not make sense to me that a soul can be "destructed", lost big time at times, but not obliterated....Seems that the Great Creator/God/Goddess doesn't destroy itself, but rather transmute the energy.  We seem to share a deep yearning for the understanding of such (here on the forum),,,,,