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Noble Realms Forum is now closed. It will remain online as a searchable archive of posts spanning 3/25/04 to 2/22/08. Members may still log in to use email functions, but there will be no further posting activity. Thank you to everyone who has contributed over the years. - Tom/montalk

#1 2005-02-23 09:12:35

freeme
Member
From: US
Registered: 2004-09-21
Website

Interesting Thought Experiment: The Global Economy has collapsed....

and the world has realized that Tom and his little band at NR have been right all along.  They are turning to NR to help come up with the solutions to build a new STO-oriented economic system.  (OK, so the second part may be a little hard to believe, but let's just pretend smile ).

What is your advice?

I'll start the ball rolling with two suggestions that come to mind.

1) Promote individual entrepeneurs.  Self employment.  Family business.
2) Develop local networks to exchange goods and services.  This will have to be done with simple bartering at first, but eventually a currency may be developed to accommodate more complex trading.  It will be especially important to bring into this system used goods.
 

So, individual efforts and responsibility combined with cooperative networks will form the basis of the new STO economic system.  What do you all think?  The world is waiting.... wink

Kathy


Never Give Up!

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#2 2005-02-23 13:57:04

morningsun76
the answer has been with you the whole time
From: In two worlds
Registered: 2004-09-11

Re: Interesting Thought Experiment: The Global Economy has collapsed....

Well, it seems based on your suggestions that you recognize private property rights.  Building on that, my question is, how do you prevent the current world state of affairs from reoccuring?  In other words, how do you prevent the eventual consolidation of big-money interests which become so powerful they are able to control the legislature, and thus result once again in the fascist state of affairs and permanent war we are experiencing today?   In my mind that's the biggest question: How can we protect individual rights -- especially including property rights -- while at the same time insulating government from the influence of private moneyed interests?

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#3 2005-02-23 15:27:36

zonabi
mage
From: zerone
Registered: 2004-08-17
Website

Re: Interesting Thought Experiment: The Global Economy has collapsed....

i say there can be no money, no currency at all. at all!

currency dissolves the values of communication and trading, and makes people lazy.

just my 2 cents (pun intended!)

z


"...i was taken by the hand, from the ocean to the sand..."
nitin sawhney - 'eastern eyes'

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#4 2005-02-24 04:27:27

wandering1
Explorer
Registered: 2004-04-02

Re: Interesting Thought Experiment: The Global Economy has collapsed....

Yes.  Self employment, cooperative networks.  The use of intuition.
We will need to be practical.  Access to food.  Access to water.  Access to warmth.

Economies have collapsed before.  That part is not so new.  The global scale is new, and we will feel effects locally.

Hyperinflation has happened many times.  Paper currency can become worthless.  Consider getting some silver coins for barter.  In fact, barter of all kinds will likely increase.

Consider giving as a way of "stepping into the flow" so that you may then receive.

Be prepared for a large decline in the stock market.  Interest rates will rise - perhaps dramatically. 

I think that housing prices may go down for a time during the initial period of economic dislocation and then will likely go up as paper currencies become less valuable.

Last edited by wandering1 (2005-02-24 04:32:11)

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#5 2005-02-27 02:41:50

freeme
Member
From: US
Registered: 2004-09-21
Website

Re: Interesting Thought Experiment: The Global Economy has collapsed....

These comments have made me think that this question needs to go a lot deeper into what constitutes an economy, not just the exchange of goods but totally reconstructing the way we view construction.  We tend to think of 'raw materials' as being givens.  They are there for the taking, at least for anyone who 'owns' the land these resources are on.  But using these resources is an exchange.  As it stands it is now a theft from the earth and from the lower lifeforms.  We take without giving anything in return.  But what could we give the earth in return for all that she gives?  All I can think of I thankfullness.  I think such 'thankful' energy probably nourishes the earth and benefits her in ways we can not perceive.  When we become advanced enough, we will probably also be able to ask before we conduct an exchange: "Tree.  I need food.  Please create nourishing apples for me this summer.  In return I will water you and nourish you and protect you from insects. Deal?"   

This isn't coming out as well as I'd like.  The point is to consider all exchanges as free exchanges between independent beings, not just one human to another.  These exchanges grow in complexity to become networks.  Part of the network could evolve into a monetary network.  I really only see money as a reified form of barter.  It does not have to involve questions of power.   I guess safeguards would have to be put in place to protect against the monetary system evolving into a power grab.  I wasn't originally thinking too far into the future with this issue.  The more immediate issue would be how to get power OUT of the hands of the PTB now.  An economic collapse, while intended to consolidate their power might provide the opportunity for people to regain  their economic independence.  It would depend on the actions of individuals, of course.  It is not something anyone could control, but if we can be clever enough and think far enough outside the box, there might be a chance for humanity to break free.

That is kind of where I was going with the laundry room story.  Utilize the used goods to help people survive during the period of instability.


Never Give Up!

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#6 2005-03-23 19:45:07

dreamosis
Bard
Registered: 2005-03-07

Re: Interesting Thought Experiment: The Global Economy has collapsed....

I know this post is a month old, but it interested me...

I believe that money, if it to be used by a hypothetical, future STO-oriented society, would have to have a real, visible relationship to work.

Rep. Ron Paul, the only congressman right now fighting for the abolition of the Federal Reserve and a return to the gold stanard, point out in his book--"The Case for Gold"--that the present tragedy of the dollar is that it has lost its relationship to work.

In my mind, I person works forty hours per week (heck, in my mind, if they work 20) then they should have no problem surviving and meeting all their obligations, i.e., rent, utilities, child care, food, etc.  I believe that if a person gives that much there should be no question of whether or not they can afford physical necessities--whether they're a lawyer, a massage therapist or a janitor. 

I think, maybe, that in order for money to work it has to be valued in relationship to services done for the community sponsoring the money system--and that the services should be valued according to time, NOT its perceived "hardness" or benefit.  ...It's easy to think of cleaning people as mentally sub-standard and their work as simple and therefore less deserving of compensation, but I know my office building (with all the waste we produce) would be uninhabitable in a week without those cleaning  people.


You can't change a tiger's stripes,
but you can avoid its teeth.

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#7 2005-04-28 16:51:20

Sheesh
Wanderer
From: somewhere in time
Registered: 2005-04-20

Re: Interesting Thought Experiment: The Global Economy has collapsed....

What would it be like if everyone were paid the same amount - totally - across the board.  Eh?

And what provision would be made for people who couldn't work? (invalid, handicapped, elderly)

Just curious here.


Enlightenment happens!  Attachment to the ego-self leads one into delusion; but faith in one's Buddha nature leads one to enlightenment.

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#8 2005-05-05 18:11:03

zonabi
mage
From: zerone
Registered: 2004-08-17
Website

Re: Interesting Thought Experiment: The Global Economy has collapsed....

What would it be like if everyone were paid the same amount - totally - across the board.  Eh?


supposedly people wouldn't work as hard, or as "good" in that case. mediocrity would become a standard?

And what provision would be made for people who couldn't work? (invalid, handicapped, elderly)

first, whats an "invalid" ?

im telling y'all, there can't be money AT ALL. it just wont work. money is a shortcut, a quick and easy substitute for actual valuable TANGIBLE things. checks, credit cards... thats even worse.... and more imaginary.

TRADE GOODS and SERVICES, just like the good old days.

this makes people pursue something becuase if they dont, they wont have anything to offer to others, thus they will not get ANYTHING. if u dont have skills or a trade, u aint gettin my loaf of bread. no money available for the lazies. cuz money shortcuts work, heres 10 bucks now gimme food! perhaps those who may have had to wash dishes somewhere because they didnt have enough money can relate to what im trying to say.

money = lazy

one thing i would put on the top of the list after an economic meltdown would be to begin plating food and crops ASAP. Teach others how to plant food, how to care for seeds, etc... teach the children especially.

and also, begin teaching the metaphysical lessons that we've been jabbering about on NR for over a decade.

z


"...i was taken by the hand, from the ocean to the sand..."
nitin sawhney - 'eastern eyes'

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#9 2005-05-05 18:59:29

montalk
forum-keeper-upper
Registered: 2004-03-25
Website

Re: Interesting Thought Experiment: The Global Economy has collapsed....

In a future society, an STO economy would have to follow from the STO nature of those involved. In other words, if the people participating in the economy are good at heart, then the rest is piece of cake.

But trying to create an "STO" economy in our current world is trickier, due to the element of shortsightedness, getting off your life path and creating imbalance, and predators settling into key nexus points of financial control.

So it would be a matter of 1) including the right people in the financial network and 2) creating safeguards and contingencies against corruption and mistakes. I think this is increasingly becoming a possibility right now due to the general increase in awareness among aware people and what appears to be a synchronistic 'gathering' of such individuals into various networks in line with the more general  Polarization Phenomenon.

In a 4D STO network, assuming there are still some physical limitations like having to eat and acquire food because 4D is still partly physical, each individual would be in harmony with the universe and with him or herself. So just as our lives in 3D can be scripted and coordinated in perfect harmony even though we may not see it until the very end, in 4D it may become a conscious part of ordinary living - everything harmonizing and synchronizing according to ability and request, a Garden of Eden perhaps.

Money isn't that bad if you consider it a more efficient means of bartering. The problem arises with banks, fractional lending, interest rates/usury, fiat money, unfair taxes, etc... where physical goods/services and paper money no longer correspond precisely to each other, the predators skimming off the cream and everyone else thinking times are just tough. I'm not sure this can be fixed on a large scale unless other factors like education, media, religion, etc... are also fixed, because it is these that keep people dependent, irresponsible, and chasing after illusory goals.

So our best bet, as mentioned already on this thread, would be smaller barter networks and communities where each individual serves according to his/her ability and the majority are aware enough to spot and squeeze out any corruption where it might arise.

To get from 3D corrupt economy to 4D harmonized economy, intermediate steps are necessary and I bet certain catalysts will arise to usher in each step of the way. For instance, bartering during times of economic and political oppression.

In the meantime, we can find independence in doing what comes naturally, what is most in line with our interests and abilities. Over time, reality tends to respond to this and synchronistically supports and rewards any who follow their heart...as long as they have the patience to keep pace. If everyone did this, harmonized communities would automatically come together.


Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

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#10 2005-05-08 02:45:20

Jen
Guest

Re: Interesting Thought Experiment: The Global Economy has collapsed....

Agree with all that, Montalk, especially the last paragraph.

The Pleiadians thru Marciniak have said that we don't need to be employed
at a job to get our needs taken care of.  "When you are allowing,  Spirit will compensate you in a variety of unexpected ways."  (I shared that line with another forum previously, and after I posted it, I went out for coffee. On the way home, I found $40 on the sidewalk!)

They've also said, in Bringers of the Dawn:

Money seems to be an issue with everyone. You all have very definitive beliefs about how money comes to you. The more you believe you must work hard for money, the harder you are going to have to work. Many of you believe it is quite normal to work hard for money, and that if you don't work hard for money then it is "dirty." Let us ask you to remember the word effortless and incorporate it into your vocabulary. Say to yourself, "I am effortlessly intending that this come about." To be effortless is to command to reality to bring itself to you in a way that gives room for plenty of energy to be expended in other experimentation.<<

Channelings from the Brotherhood of God thru Jean Foster also emphasize that we have the power to draw whatever we wish from the universal substance--the problem is that we think in terms of lack rather than plenty.

Last edited by Jen (2005-05-08 02:50:13)

 

#11 2005-05-08 16:19:35

freeme
Member
From: US
Registered: 2004-09-21
Website

Re: Interesting Thought Experiment: The Global Economy has collapsed....

Thanks for sharing everyone.  Sorry I haven't been posting much lately--been caught up in my own dramas....  Trying to let go. 

I was thinking about what Tom said and wondered about the STS 'economy", that maybe the only system that will work for STS oriented beings is a slave-based economy.  Transitioning from that is going to be tricky, because it seems the transition has to take into account the mindsets and patterns of the old system.  About the money aspect, certainly the current monetary system is going to collapse and that is a good thing.  The concept of "money" or some sort of exchange mechanism is not necessarily "evil".  The system would have to be grounded in something like  man-hours or something.  And certainly the focus of the social system would have to be shifted away from simple material needs.  That goes without saying though.

Thanks,
Kathy


Never Give Up!

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#12 2006-06-02 00:53:35

limukala
Member
From: O'ahu
Registered: 2006-05-26

Re: Interesting Thought Experiment: The Global Economy has collapsed....

The problem is, no matter how many safeguards and such, power hungry people (who already have some degree of power) will always find a way around it.  There must be systemic barriers to the accumulation of wealth if it is going to be permanent, by which I mean something to the tune of a nomadic lifestyle that precludes accumulation or a form of horticulture that does not produce a surplus.  Any surplus will lead to accumulation of wealth and hierarchy, even if there is no "money" in the culture. 

What is the big deal about people being lazy and production falling etc etc etc.  What is it that we are producing that is so essential?  The average hunter/gatherer works at most a few hours a day and is far healthier and happier than the average civilized person, so what have we really achieved with our technology?  It mostly is used to perfect the techniques of domination and suppression that are the hallmarks of "civilization"

If you want more reading on the subject, or if you take issue with the assertion that primitive people live happier, healthier lives, read through these first, then see if you can argue.
http://www.anthropik.com/thirty

So then the answer is obvious, if people evolve and become harmonious and loving, then it won't matter what system we use, they will all work just fine if everybody is in STO mindset.  That seems a little far-fetched though (at least in the near-term), and if people haven't yet evolved into altruistic lovers, then the only system that will work is one with a small enough population that you know everyone involved.  That way you don't need money or even a barter system, a system of ceremonial exchange (constant gift giving) is sufficient (like old Hawaii). 
What is so sacred about personal property?  I can understand a feeling of ownership regarding something you create, or is given to you, but how can someone "own" land?  It is rent (in all its forms, not just land) that gives rise to inequality.  You pay me (give me a portion of your labor) for doing nothing, simply "owning" something.  This enables some people to live off the labor of others, meaning that everyone else has to work that much harder.


seeker of truth

follow no path
all paths lead where

truth is here

E.E. Cummings

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#13 2007-03-26 22:50:26

artichoke
Member
Registered: 2005-11-14

Re: Interesting Thought Experiment: The Global Economy has collapsed....

Things would be much simpler, probably, if everyone were STO.  It's an interesting question how much different economics would be, but let's assume it means that people would be honest and subsist in a mode of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".  A failure of Communism was that it assumed (for theoretical purposes) that people would act this way.  Of course they didn't.  But one could probably read some of the Communist literature for ideas on structuring an STO economy, if you could only get people to act accordingly.

Without that assumption and the same range of characters we have among us now, I would simply suggest that we change just a few things.

1. Get rid of corporate privilege.  A corporation is a fictional entity, but it has more rights than a natural person.  Probably the whole idea of the corporation is a mistake.  A big entity can be a big partnership, without "limited liability".

2. Get rid of debt-based money.  That keeps us always working and maximizes economic growth, so it never lets us relax and engage in the "other experimentation" the Pleiadians spoke of.

The goal is a reasonable world where everyone (whether STS or STO or anything else) can get by with a bit of work and plenty of time for personal growth and enjoyment.  Modern technology should make that easy if only we can get past the competition- and growth-maximizing elements of our current system.

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