Topic: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

So it turns out that modern astrology is based on the sky thousands of years ago, somewhere around 600 B.C. What astrology says is your sun sign does not match the sky. The sun sign is the zodiac constellation the sun was in when you were born, which depends on the day of the year. Astrology was correct about the sun sign a long time ago, but precession of the equinoxes shifted things by about 30 degrees since. So basically astrology - at least concerning the zodiac - has been frozen since Greek times.

How is it, then, that the astrological sun signs and its personality traits which link directly to the archetypal representation of that sign, are so valid for so many people if the physical basis of it all - where the sun was at their time of birth - is so totally off? Or rather, how is it that sun signs are largely valid today but only according to how the sky used to be thousands of years ago?

I'm still pondering the implications... timeloops, occult control systems, what the C's said about Greek stalinization of astrology, etc...

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

Re: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

Somehow the transits and archetypes that modern astrologers are interpreting are operative and moreover in the negative sense, otherwise they might not bear the label of archetypes.
Barbara Hand Clow gets into tha axial tilt thing quite a bit in her latest book. She was also a consulting astrologer for over 20 years. Interesting things to be looked at the way things have been repeating themselves in endless and pointless circles of destruction and very few have seemingly taken notice of the mass insanity that passes for civilization.
When one looks at behavior patterns within the masses of popular culture, its disturbingly archetypal, predictable, and repetitious. Circular, organic, programmable, animal.


Re: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

The whole thing is just wacky when you think about it.  According to modern - incorrect - astrology, I'm sun Scorpio, moon Virgo, with Leo Rising.  But going on where things actually were in the sky at the time that I was born, I'm a Libra sun - the sun smack in Libra - with a Virgo moon (still) but Cancer rising.  !!!!!!!!!!!!!   Talk about completely different.  And yet.........over the years, whenever people attempted to guess what my sign was I've only ever been guessed to be three things - Scorpio, Virgo and Leo.  And technically all of them are right, based on what modern skewed astrology says.  And I in turn have been able to guess people correctly as well, even going as far as being able to correctly guess one woman's sun AND moon.  I pegged her as a Cancer/Aries, and was right.   That's freaky.

Even more interesting is that I've often pondered why my personality has never fully been "Scorpio."  Why I didn't always jive with how a Scorp "should" be.   I'd read these horoscope books that outlined the most deviant, nasty, plotting, scheming, vicious, nymphomaniac Scorpio beeyotches and bastards you've ever met...and telling me that THAT'S who I'm supposed to be, and I'd be like, um, I'm sorry, but that's just not me.  I don't behave that way.   Yet, I've met Scorps who were all that, and then some, really giving Scorps a bad rap.  So if they were technically born in Libra, then what the hell is going on here?? 

So the only thing I'm left thinking after it's all said and done, is the quote:  "It just means that the Matrix cannot tell you who you are."  From the first "Matrix" movie, and it's quite fitting.  Whether it's the old stagnant skewed astrology or the new revised chart that keeps up with the precession of the equinoxes, ultimately we have to define who we're going to be as people.   Not some silly astrology book from the bookstore or the monthly horoscope at the back of a magazine. 

However I am interested in all the Bigger Picture implications of why people would still find that their energy patterns and personalities match to the old astrological charts...even though the sky is now different.  What IS going on here?

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy shit ... what a ride!"  - Anonymous
"I get by with a little help from my (higher density) friends."

Re: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

I would be very interested to know how you discover your signs according to how they're supposed to be.  Is there a site online that lets you calculate that, or do you have a book?

Re: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

Lono wrote:

I would be very interested to know how you discover your signs according to how they're supposed to be.  Is there a site online that lets you calculate that, or do you have a book?

Here is a long listing of available planetarium software:

A nice free one is Stellarium (for XP, Os X, Linux):

Configure your preferences as follows:

* hide ground and atmosphere
* set latitude / longitude, date / time of your birth
* turn on ecliptic line
* turn on azimuthal grid
* turn on constellations and names

Everything to look for will be near the ecliptic line, the plane of the solar system. The 0 line on the azimuthal grid is your local horizon line - and where this crosses the ecliptic, the constellation that rises at that spot is your modern ascendant or rising sign. Sun is in what would be your corrected sun sign, and similar for the moon and whatever constellation it is in.

Also of interest: Gregorian Calendar and the deletion of ten-eleven days in October of 1582. I have a hunch this factors in somehow. For instance, if in the year 2006 AD your astrological sign is off by X degrees compared to the sky in 200 BC, then by inserting several days into the calendar your birthday would be checked several days sooner when the sun was in a different constellation - the right constellation according to the ancient sky. Like correcting the slippage via precession by fudging the calendar, which somehow seems illegal and deceptive. Just an idea...

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

6 (edited by SiriArc 2006-08-27 00:25:19)

Re: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

From Here:

And Maybe like this:

YOU enter:

Having donned YOUR Encounter Suit

Jeffrey of Troy wrote:

We are all Kosh

Which is composed of system translating parameters


To Enter the Snake Pit, YOU become a Snake.......

Which is Not



11   23   11

7 (edited by Hildegarde 2006-08-27 01:39:03)

Re: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

Astrology can help determine and understand the "elemental balances present" in a person.
These don't determine destiny. These are the energies you were born with.
You can still transcend your elemental configuration because you have the freewill to do so.
By this I mean you are not limited by the characteristics of your elemental energies. You can be something different.
Nevertheless, to transcend your elemental balances, it would be advantageous to know what they are in the first place.

"The universe is on fire with wonder, beauty, and ecstasy." - From the Undines to Humanity

Re: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

The last 2 posts very well put.
I think there may be some misconception going on, because it was exactly the start of the precession of equinox, that created the whole split in consciousness mess by Clow's account.
The ephemera charts that astrologers use, which I am no expert on need to be correlated to this discussion. Also there are others that speak of something called sidereal astrology that I am not up on. Some of what goes on seems to be a way to further subdivide things without answering any real questions.
In my way of thinking none of this amounts to much if the archetypal influences that are noted are operative based on the system in place. Its a question of the shoe fitting.
The most obvious and interesting thing to watch are the Mercury retrograde periods which are potently active during these times, and also the eclipses.
Also notice how new bodies keep getting added to the mix to further complicate and add molasses to the matter, EG Chiron, Vesta.....and so many others that I cannot recall.
The archetypal influences are designed to be impossible to master in this domain.
We have to move beyond their influence.


Re: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

Steiner took account of the change concerning the oprecession of the equinoxes.
that is why he argues we are not at all living in the Aquarius Era but in the Pisces Era.

According to Steiner:
Pisces= 1414-3573
Aquarius = 3573-5753

(all amount to 2160 years., more or less 2160 X 12 = more or less 25 960 years, that is ONE platonic year. a platonic day would be "25960 divided by 360 = 72 years")

He also stresses the difference between the astrological era and the cultural era, the latter always starting some centuries after the beginning of the astrological era.

So according to Steiner, all people claiming that we are living in the Aquarius era and that we have defeated materialism by entering this new era are disinfo con-artists or simply ignorants.

What do you think about that? Does it fit with what you already know?

Re: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

Here's how I see it... thousands of babies were born the same day I was and therefore have sun in Aquarius and moon in Sag.  Does that make us all alike with regard to personality, emotional life, destiny, etc?  Obviously not.  So how do I go about using astrology to learn about myself?  What can possibly set me apart from the herd then?

That's where I think the importance of the ascendant comes in, along with the house placements of the planets.  The ascendant moves through all 12 houses and contacts every planet once per day.  If I tell you that my ascendant is conjunct my 12th house Neptune and Saturn and Mars both park in my 1st house, I've just revealed an awful lot about myself and my relationship with the world around me, haven't I?  ... much more so than knowing my sun and moon signs.


Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great and would suffice.  ~Robert Frost

Re: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

Well... I don't know very much about astrology, actually.

However, i did study the spiritual evolution of mankind through the ages, from what Steiner called Ancient Saturn, Ancient Sun, ancient Moon, Earth (now). Earth pases through 7 condisiotns of life: 1st elemental ralm, 2d elemental realm, 3d elemental realm, mineral, and then in the future, 'all plant' realm, 'all animal' realm and 'all human' realm. Mineral deevlops into 7 conditions of form: spiritual (devachan) without form (arupa) or higher spiritual realm, spiritual with form (rupa) or lower spiritual realm, astral, physical (now), and then in the future perfected/plastic astral (psychic), intellectual (perfected lower spiritual realm) and archetypal (perfected higher spiritual realm. Our present physical stage develops into 7 Epochs: Polarian, Hyperborean, Lemurian, Atlanetan, Post-Atlantean (now) and in the future 6th Epoch and 7th Epoch. Post-Atlantean Eppch develops into the ancient Indian cultural epoch, the Ancient Persian, the ancient Egypto-Chaldean-Baylonian (Taurus), the Greco-roman (Aries or Lamb, in which Christ incarnated), the Germano-anglo-saxon (now, Pisces=1414-3573), and in the future the Slavo-Russian (Aquarius=3573-5735) and finally the American (Capricorn), in which the moon reunites with earth and swarms of spiders of materialistic-intellectual thinking (AI) gets hold upon the part of humanity that won't have been able to free itself from the Net of Matrix spiders.

Each and everyone planetary condition, condition of life, condition of form, Great Epoch and cultural epoch coheres with the develpment of the body and specific soul-spirit qualities. Each level is a recapitulation of the greater cycle into which it is embedded: for example: the 1st condition of life, that is the 1st elemental realm, is a recapitulation of ancient Saturn. Also, the 1st condition of form, that is the Higher spiritual (arupa), and the first Great Epoch, that is the Polarian epoch, are also recapitulations of ancient Saturn, but on their own limited level. The greater cycle reflects and repeats its seven phases in each one of the cycles the greater cycle carries within itself.

I myself find that Steiner's findings are highly usefool tools to investigtion de spiritual evolution of mankind, and also its downfall in materialism/intellectualism (the great Darkening that is the so-called Enlightenment).

12 (edited by wandering1 2006-08-27 12:37:45)

Re: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

montalk wrote:

Or rather, how is it that sun signs are largely valid today but only according to how the sky used to be thousands of years ago?

I have come across an explanation for this.  It comes from the astrologer Steven Forrest in his book The Inner Sky.

He says that the seasons of the year have a primary influence and that the constellations were used as a marker for which season a person was born in.  The markers were set thousands of years ago, and have since shifted, but what they were marking – which part of the seasons we are born in – still corresponds to birth dates.

For example, the idea is that somebody born near the winter solstice when the days are short is going to be influenced by this – what we know of as a Capricorn.

Conversely, somebody born at the summer solstice will tend to have a different type of personality – the is the spring equinox and the fall equinox and of course all the variations in between.  So, by this model we have the seasons – Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter – and where one is born in the seasonal cycle having a primary effect on the individual.

Re: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

I respect astrology, although I consider it is one marker of our destiny.
I see mainly 7 or them.

1)our physiological frame (shape of the head and torso and belly as a whole)
2)our socio-educational programming and its relations to heredity (family, friends, education, large family gene pool and vibratory spiritual frequency, although one must not thikn of physical waves or rarefid matter here, it is an etheric spiritual level imprinted by astral and ego)
3)our temperament (phlegmatic, choleric, sanguine, melancholic)
4)our caracter (moon, mercury, venus, sun, mars, jupiter, saturn)
5)our sex (our etheric body is of the opposite sex)
6)fallen elementals that are too attached to us (we make elementals fall when we are not looking at the world properly, that is when we are not looking at the world as being spiritual and soulful. Developing and using technology put elementals on a downward falling path)
7)the geographic double (the quality of telluric emanations coming out of the earth, depending on where we live (is the an underground base near where you live? mountains? volcanoes? telluric fault lines and/or instabilities? In America, perticularly in the South-West of the USA, geomagnetic sorces are highly coherent with the quality of ahrimanic forces).

Beside astrology, we must consider at leaast all of these factors that are highly influencial, if not determining destiny, our temporal vehicle made up by our own karma and outer environmental conditions (pollution, poisoning of the water, etc.).

Re: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

Right now at the end of summer we are sulfurizing a lot, to the point were we will be fully sulfurized when apples will be ripe fall on the ground. the it is the decay of winter, but from the other side it is an enlievening of the inner earth: sun forces enter the earth and get highly energised inside, preparing next resurrection in spring.

The shorter day in winter solstice is the death of sun and its rebirth three days later (22 december longest night, 25 december so-called birth of Jesus-Christ or Sol Invicti, Sun unvanquished".Then days start to become longer, its the rebirth of sun.

St-John's Tide is three day after summer solstice. The sun starts to die and human beings get sulphurized by the activity of the Dragon. Michael sends his iron meteors in the beginning of august with the perseides (Perseus is like Michael). This sulphurization culmines in Michaelmas, when apples and leaves fall from the trees, and everything looks like dying. But in fact winter awakens,. it is not like sleep or death. Sumer is like a sleepwalking period of the year,. everything is dissolved in hot air are raises towards the cosmos. We are less inhibited, more sleepy, dreaming our lives. In winter, we are awoken by the icy cold air biting our faces and bodies. The sun is wide awake in the inner wearth in winter. Same with sleep and awakeness: during our day we are dying and become tired at the end of day, because cnosciousness burns us up, and deadens the etheric forces maintaining the body. when sleeps begins, we turn into vegetal beings, and our etheric revigorates itself like a growing plant. About 'sleeping really profoundly' in French, we say "sleeping like a log". The vegetative image is clear. So at the time of awakening we are in automn. At the time we go to sleep and fall into sleep, we are ourselves in spring, growth begins in our physical-etheric bodies and our spiritual-astral self dos into its own world living a life or its own, hidden.

In find that very interesting, it is like common sense to me.

15 (edited by montalk 2006-08-27 14:50:57)

Re: Astrology does not match sky, conspiracy?

Thanks for the info and comments, everyone. I searched for some explanations from astrologers and found this from the freewill astrology site:

The astrological signs are not defined by, nor do they have anything to do with, the constellations you see in the sky. Approximately 2,000 years ago, when the foundations of astrological thinking were formulated, the names of the constellations happened to be paired with the astrological signs. Today, those pairings are no longer in sync: Astrological signs do not line up with the constellations in the same way they did way back then, due to the phenomena known as the precession of the equinoxes. The equinoxes move backwards, or precess, with respect to the constellations by about one degree every 72 years.

However, modern Western astrologers understand that the raw material of their work does not involve a study of distant stars. Rather, their relevant data have to do with the interweavings of the planets in our own solar system within a zone of influence defined by the relationship between the Earth and Sun. The key demarcation points in that relationship are the equinoxes, the points in time and space at which the Earth, with its tilted axis, is positioned with respect to the Sun in such a way that the length of day and night are equal. At the vernal equinox, which occurs on about March 20th of each year, the Sun enters into the sign of Aries.

This zodiac, positioned with respect to the equinoxes, is called the "tropical zodiac." Most Western astrologers, who use this system, are called tropical astrologers. There is also a zodiac based loosely on the constellations. It's called the "sidereal zodiac," and is used primarily by Vedic (or Hindu) astrologers. For an excellent discussion of the differences between sidereal and tropical astrology, and the merits of each, pick up the April/May 2002 issue of The Mountain Astrologer.

Astrologers using the tropical zodiac do not do so out of ignorance of the precession of the equinoxes. Knowledge of the precession is very ancient, and possibly predates the creation of the tropical zodiac. Precession was discovered thousands of years ago in Bharat (also known as India). Sir Norman Lockyer found that many very early temples in Egypt had been moved at different periods in history so that they lined up with a particular star as it precessed across the sky.

The ancient Egyptians also had a succession of cults that adopted symbols (e.g., the bull, the ram) associated with the concurrent precessional age. (See, for e.g., E. C. Krupp, In Search of Ancient
Astronomies, Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1977.)

Early Christian symbolism was dominated by fishes, the symbol associated with Pisces, which is the constellation that defines the precessional age that began around the birth of Christ. (See C. G. Jung, Aion, translated by R. F. C. Hull, 2nd edition, Princeton: University Press, 1959.) Modern-day Christians in America sometimes use a fish symbol to signal their Christianity. So perhaps an attraction to a symbol associated with the astrological age in which one lives need not be accompanied by conscious knowledge about the age and the precession that defines it.

The ancient Greek astrological writers (e.g., Ptolemy) were very explicit in distinguishing the tropical zodiac they used from the fixed stars and constellations. This distinction is still made among modern Western astrologers who use the tropical zodiac.

Some people who are not knowledgeable about the history or practice of astrology may ask, "Why then do the tropical signs have the same names and symbols as the constellations with which they were aligned 2000 years ago? Aren't the zodiacal constellations the source of the meanings of the tropical signs? And so shouldn't astrologers take the meaning of a tropical sign from the constellation most closely aligned with it now?"

This specious argument is based on the presupposition that the meanings of the signs come from the natures of the symbols in the heavens that we call constellations. But clearly this is not the case. Some of the traditionally dominant traits of Virgo are obsession with detail and an analytical and critical nature. How could these traits be derived from a picture of a virgin? How could the Piscean qualities of spirituality, selflessness, imaginativeness, capacity for inspiration, femininity, and idealism be derive from a picture of two fish? Few traits of each sign can easily be related to the symbol assigned to the constellation of the same name. [montalk: however, Aries (ramming), Taurus (plodding), Scorpio (stinging), Sagittarius (physical), Leo (pompous), and Libra (fair) do relate.]

There is no necessity, given current knowledge, for the tropical signs to have received their meanings from the zodiacal constellations; it is possible that the nature of the tropical signs suggested a symbol to associate with a constellation (since most of the symbols look very little like the pattern of stars we associate with them).

Much depends on which was established first, the tropical signs or the zodiacal constellations. When did the tropical zodiac and constellations appear? The tropical zodiac may have been around a long time. The Sumerians and the Egyptians had a tropical (lunar-solar) calendar by the early part of the third millennium B.C.E.; given the direct and transparent relationship between the signs of the tropical zodiac and the months of the solar year, they may have had a tropical zodiac as well, although we have no direct evidence of this.

Tropical calendars in the form of standing stones (e.g., Stonehenge) date from 1000-5000 B.C.E. in Northwest Europe, so a tropical zodiac might have existed there. Unfortunately, the preliterate people of these cultures left no records behind. Martin Seymour-Smith (The New Astrologer, New York: Collier, 1981) claims that some sort of zodiac, possibly sidereal, with 12 equal signs of 30 degrees, existed in India in 3000 B.C.E. He claims that a manuscript in Sanskrit from that period shows that astrologers then used a zodiac, an equal house system, and aspects counted sign to sign (as in much modern-day Hindu astrology, and as in classical Greek astrology). Unfortunately, Seymour-Smith does not cite any references or explain how the dating of the manuscript was arrived at.

The origin of the modern constellations is somewhat obscure, so it is very difficult to decide whether all of the zodiacal constellations were around to lend meaning to the tropical signs at the time when the tropical zodiac was created (especially because we cannot be certain when the tropical zodiac appeared). Noonan (1976; Journal of Geocosmic Research, Vol. 2, No. 1, pp. 6-7) claims that the first zodiac of the constellations appeared around 500 B.C.E.

The constellations are believed to have been assigned symbols by the Babylonians, but there were originally 36 constellations, and only some of them coincide with the modern sidereal signs. We know that some of the symbols used for the modern signs are recent, because the original symbols were all animals (the word "zodiac," derived from the Greek zoidiako's, means "circle of animals"). We can be certain that the modern constellations of the zodiac existed by about 30 B.C. because they appear very clearly on the ceiling of the Temple of Hathor at Dendera in Upper Egypt. So was the tropical zodiac in use by then?

It might have been. The precession of the equinoxes was certainly common knowledge at that time. Precession was discovered at the very latest in 200 B.C., when Hipparchus wrote about it. But Sir Norman Lockyer found that many very early temples in Egypt had been moved at different periods in history so that they lined up with a particular star as it precessed across the sky.

The explanation that astro signs have more to do with seasons of the year is plausible. Maybe then the star patterns are configured into archetypal images that match whatever influence the season had during that epoch of time. So if the zodiac were redone now when much of what is considered Aries is actually in Pisces, then the constellation Aries can be re-interpreted as something more benign like "Sheep."  But I'm not sure how that would acccount for Rising and Moon signs, which have more to do with time of the day or month (and location of birth) than the season of the year.

[link <--- astrological significance of the various ages, Pisces / Aquarius, etc... another thing I'm curious about is whether hyper-dimensional "history" is encoded within these. For instance, whether a timeloop was anchored in the Age of Gemini (3rd sign, Gemini = divine twins, competition, yin yang between higher-D polarities) from an origin point in the Age of Aquarius (11th sign, Aquarius = unleasher of the great flood, holder of the mixing bowl of the gods) creating a timeloop of false reality matrix imprinted with the 3*11=33 numerological codes.]

druid wrote:

So according to Steiner, all people claiming that we are living in the Aquarius era and that we have defeated materialism by entering this new era are disinfo con-artists or simply ignorants.

What do you think about that? Does it fit with what you already know?

Premature timing is a disinformation trick for sure. Push the fake thing ahead of the real one in order to pre-empt and thereby deflect the latter. Like the brewing third world war in the Middle East and all those religious nuts hopping up and down hoping it happens soon so that prophecy is fuliflled and Christ returns. Only, it will be the ante-Christ propelled into power by a faux armageddon. Just as a world apocalypse can be orchestrated ahead of schedule so that alien saviors can be rushed through as the bringers of a new Golden Age years before the actual transition to that age happens, in order to steer it all off course into a negative probable future.

The world has not overcome materialization. In fact far from being a sign of spiritualization that is supposed to signify the Age of Aquarius, the proliferation of radio, television, and internet has made this interim period basically an Age of Ahriman. But as far as where the vernal equinox is, right now it is in Pisces and within a couple hundred years will be fully in Aquarius. Then again does any of this matter if linear time breaks down....

It's also worth mentioning that Socrates' last tale before execution mentioned that the world as seen from a hyper-D perspective looks like a patchwork of 12 pieces. That is a dodecahedron, which the Greeks identified as the ether or the matrix in which the world was suspended. I find it possible that the 12 sides correlate with the 12 zodiac signs, and the signs are therefore relating to 12 sectors / entry ports / emanation streams of the 3D linear time Matrix that each have their archetypal domains corresponding to ages in linear history and, via a fractal self-similar process on a smaller scale, correspond also to Matrix-based facets of our personality and destiny.

As for the precession of the equinoxes, check out the book Hamlet's Mill which proposes that much of mythology encodes astronomical information about that very thing. There are myths about millstones becoming unhinged, for instance, relating supposedly to the heavens rotating around a different pole star previously.  But what the myths show is not a slow process of precession, but a sudden cataclysmic unhinging. This may relate to the Atlantian pole shift, but personally I believe it has more to do with the unhinging of our time axis.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.