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Noble Realms Forum is now closed. It will remain online as a searchable archive of posts spanning 3/25/04 to 2/22/08. Members may still log in to use email functions, but there will be no further posting activity. Thank you to everyone who has contributed over the years. - Tom/montalk

#16 2007-10-26 23:02:42

Tom Paine
Member
Registered: 2004-10-26

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

Bhang, nexus, shukaido,
If you're interested in what's really going on you can learn from
the thread about the Cassiopaeans to which montalk has recently
replied.

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#17 2007-10-28 17:15:27

Zejith_Themis
Aspirant
From: Vicenza, Italy
Registered: 2006-10-05
Website

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

TP- I try and have some patience precisely because AC had the habit of "shocking and aweing" which he must have found amusing, and may indeed have served to perpetuate his writings, but this image-hawking has also certainly acted to preclude serious consideration of those same writings. as Antaeus rightly observes AC did engage in "religion-bashing", often tounge in cheek, often outright aristocratic garbage... sometimes the logogram of the Man Crowley was in control of the pen, and it could be an ornery MoFo.

Antaeus- he swept it under the rug with one hand, elevated it with another.. and he did this constantly with lots of stuff. it is impossible to formulate a balanced picture of Crowley without going through a considerable volume of his work; and I think the crafty bastard did it that way on purpose ;-)

as for licentious or immoral, or 'revolting details of sex'; i'll make those distinctions on a case by case basis and on my own authority, thanks... i'm quite sure there are many cases, as you say. i'm not looking for a cult, i re-invent my own daily; and study all i come across to make it more interesting. so there.

sukaido: it's not "privileged" material, and that's the point! AC open sourced the Golden Dawn with the publication of the Equinox, and that is fully available for free online. as is TONS of stuff directly relevant to "occultism" (not been occult at all for over 100 years).

that's why i get irritated at judgemental phrases based on urban legend images being brandished about when it's a hop skip and a jump to actually having something to say.

"Garbage cans"... what part of AC's corpus of writings is that adressed to? The academic texts, the "Holy Books", his poetry, what? It's all available for free, no need even to call the evil Amazon into play. what's the rubbish bin comment coming from?

it ain't telling people "you need to be an occult scholar", it's "stop shooting off bullshit at random" nothing more.

i have a TV;  if i want random BS i'll turn it on.

if it still works.

93/93

Last edited by Zejith_Themis (2007-10-28 17:23:09)


Love is the law, love under will.
   
     Zejith Themis
      .:420-510:.
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#18 2007-10-28 17:32:12

Zejith_Themis
Aspirant
From: Vicenza, Italy
Registered: 2006-10-05
Website

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

and just to flog it more: www.zeitgeistmovie.com.

the video with most info packed into it i've seen online yet.

---Zeitgeist Movie---

Intro: war,evolution, religion,patriotism,war. cool video.

Part I: Christianity as Astrotheological Literary Hybrid

Part II: Conspiracy 9/11

Part III: Banking and War

There's probably already a thread here somwhere...

[edit] found it!  do see all parts, it is a 2 hour film.

Last edited by Zejith_Themis (2007-10-28 17:43:12)


Love is the law, love under will.
   
     Zejith Themis
      .:420-510:.
    FIAT IUSTITIA
    RUAT COELUM

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#19 2007-10-28 22:32:45

Tom Paine
Member
Registered: 2004-10-26

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

ZT--I appreciate your moderate attitude.  And your scholarship is impressive.
But after reading Crowley and especially War in Heaven, I cannot stomach
religious fundamentalists of ANY stripe.  True, my attitude may put off some
religious types from investigating AC or other non-theocratic systems of
thought, but I maintain that if the person doesn't have a questioning mind
and is merely a spoon fed believer, that person will never see the Darkness
at the end of the religion funnel.  (The "funnel" was the name of the
anteroom leading to the gas chamber at Auschwitz.)

I don't hold Crowley as an example of how a person should behave, but
I do appreciate his ability to separate the wheat from the chaff of so much
of the disinformation which keeps us chasing our tails like the Ourobouros,
and trapped on the wheel of karma.

Ignorance Endangers
Knowledge Protects

TP

Last edited by Tom Paine (2007-10-29 12:42:11)

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#20 2007-10-29 02:33:00

Antaeus
Member
Registered: 2007-07-06

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

Tom Paine, I think you might have meant, "...if the person does have a questioning mind and is really a truth-seeker..."

Zejith_Themis, I watched all the movie you made link to, it was facinating.  I realize that the gist of these religions mostly pertains to astrological events, and noticed something that was not mentioned, that very many stories in the Old and New Testament simply refer to poems or stories about Initiation.  Job was an old poem, older than the Pentateuch about the Scene of Judgement, and shows that satan is one of the sons of God, he served as accuser of the soul which was at the end of its probation and now facing judgement.  Matthew 27: 46, shows a line in Hebrew, and then shows it misinterpreted as meaning God why hast thou forsaken me, when in fact it means just the opposite.  That it was done on purpose to have both exclamations in that verse, for both of these exclamations are usually made when an aspirant is going through the trial of Initiation.  In Eccl. 1-7 it shows me some reference to reincarnation.  Rivers of lives returning to the Cosmic Ocean, seemingly endless peregrinations from and back once more into matter.  Why does Crowley rever Satan?  If engaged in the Circulations of the Cosmos there must be many others he would want to confer with.  Of course, this last is a question coming from my ignorance.  I have not studied much at all so far in the matter of Circulations of the Cosmos.

I have also read a bit of international history and have became aware of the fact that when a conquering people have to withdraw that a lot of suffering ensues.  Exceptions are conquering people's who just want to raze, pillage plunder and rape. 
When you look at all the cultures on this planet right now, which one would you want to be part of?  If America is so bad, why do so many people do just about anything they can to get in?  When Rome had to withdraw from the British Isles in the first century, they went back to anarchy, being constantly attacked by peoples of Continental Europe.  When I see all this conspiracy evidence exposed to me about rich people trying to rule the world, and it comes from nations that have 98% of its population all one ethnic group, or a nation where the biggest source of revenue comes from organized crime, it is a bit ludicrous.

Well, that is enough of my ignorance.  For now.

Last edited by Antaeus (2007-10-29 04:43:24)


Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
----------------------------------------------------------
You have to believe in the impossible in order to become.

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#21 2007-10-29 06:49:33

dunkelheit
Member
Registered: 2006-08-17

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

From Crowley's The Vision and the Voice:
"The supreme Rite would be to bring about a climax in the death of the victim.  By this Rite one would attain the summit  of Magical Art.  Even better would be to slay a girl, preferably a willing victim.  After violating her, she should be cut into nine pieces.  These should not be eaten, but divided as follows:-head, arms, legs, and quadrisected trunk.  The names of the gods appropriate are to be written on the skin, the arms are then to be flayed, and burnt...This Rite should not be employed on ordinary occasions, but rarely, and then for great purposes; it should not be disclosed to any man."

Personally, I don't need to waste my time studying thousands of pages of pretentious ramblings to realize that this kind of thing is not for me.  Not to mention the evidence that supports Crowley's involvement with M16 as well as masonic organizations that most likely participated in the kind of rituals described above.  But to each his own I guess.

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#22 2007-10-29 12:29:29

Zejith_Themis
Aspirant
From: Vicenza, Italy
Registered: 2006-10-05
Website

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

uh- that's not from the Liber 418 Liber XXX Aerum vel Saeculi  Being of the Angels of the 30 Aethyrs the Vision and the Voice, but rather from The Paris Working.

The bit you quote is the resulting instructions obtained from a certain vision.. and is followed by the note:

{WEH NOTE:  See below for Crowley's opinion that this portion of the record represents false or grossly defective material from some interfering evil.}

WEH is Bill Heidrick, a high ranking OTO official.

You seem to have enough time to waste by reading cherry-picked quotes equivalent to "Adih-man sayin' he's gonna wipe israel off the map" for their pure sensational titillation and the sense of moral indignation you get from them.

Double checking the origin of the quote before pasing judgement, however, is just too hard?

Now take into consideration how whoever presented you that quote goes about their business... You've been punked by someone and, given your superficiality, I have to agree with Tom at this point.

You deserve it.

93/93

Last edited by Zejith_Themis (2007-10-29 12:30:36)


Love is the law, love under will.
   
     Zejith Themis
      .:420-510:.
    FIAT IUSTITIA
    RUAT COELUM

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#23 2007-10-29 12:50:24

Tom Paine
Member
Registered: 2004-10-26

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

Antaeus--thank you for correcting my sentence structure.  I got ahead of myself trying
to say too many things at once.

As to which country to live in--apparently the only place better would be someplace off
this 3D earth.  Mankind seems to be hopelessly trapped in the dog-eat-dog STS
survival of the baddest and to hell with the rest endless loop.

Our relative comfort in the US has been bought by raping and pillaging resources
and people from everywhere and it has almost succeeded in ruining the planet.

More on this later, I just got off a twelve hour graveyard shift and I must sleep.

TP

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#24 2007-10-29 13:16:56

Zejith_Themis
Aspirant
From: Vicenza, Italy
Registered: 2006-10-05
Website

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

oops, sorry Antaeus, missed yours when i saw that other post.

to answer this:

"Why does Crowley rever Satan? "

short answer: he didn't.

long answer: wrap your mind around his worldview and cosmology to get an idea of what his blasphemous sounding statements really meant.


Love is the law, love under will.
   
     Zejith Themis
      .:420-510:.
    FIAT IUSTITIA
    RUAT COELUM

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#25 2007-10-29 16:23:47

dunkelheit
Member
Registered: 2006-08-17

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

It doesn't matter to me which book the above quote is from, or how Crowley's disciples tried to whitewash its meaning, but thanks for the correction.  Regardless, I believe that the information speaks for itself.  Zejith, I have resisted making a judgement call about you or anyone else who has contributed to this thread.  Why can't you extend me the same simple courtesy?  Because when it comes right down to it, this is a message board.  You really don't know enough about me to judge whether or not I am superficial.

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#26 2007-10-29 18:06:54

lyra
Naked Emperor Pointer Outer
From: my own private idaho
Registered: 2004-03-25
Website

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

There's nothing worse than people arguing about somebody they didn't know personally, and each side thinking they fully understand where the person in question was coming from...even though again, they didn't know the subject personally and the subject is actually dead so there's no way to find out anytime soon.

!

Last edited by lyra (2007-10-29 19:17:43)


"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy shit ... what a ride!"  - Anonymous
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"I get by with a little help from my (higher density) friends."
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#27 2007-10-29 18:45:55

Antaeus
Member
Registered: 2007-07-06

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

It was not my intention to invoke those who are pro and con forces pertaining to Aleister Crowley.  It does remind me of a lesson that has been brought to mind more than once.  How I might devote emotional energy to an ideal or belief, and when I come across some bit of information that damages the foundation on which those ideal's or belief's are resting, it can cause a volatile reaction.  Whatever I devote emotional energy to, become very important.

I have come to the conclusion that my faith should be based on confidence and trust, and that it is always evolving, or growing, and both of those terms have the verb, change, intrinsic to them. 

I am also becoming very reticent or at least, more discerning toward what I direct emotions to.  Bucking bronco's are fun to ride for only so long, then one just wants to ride the gentle horse.

Last edited by Antaeus (2007-10-29 18:53:16)


Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
----------------------------------------------------------
You have to believe in the impossible in order to become.

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#28 2007-10-29 18:57:18

Zejith_Themis
Aspirant
From: Vicenza, Italy
Registered: 2006-10-05
Website

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

dunkelheit:

" Regardless, I believe that the information speaks for itself.  Zejith, I have resisted making a judgement call about you or anyone else who has contributed to this thread.  Why can't you extend me the same simple courtesy?"

Because that snippet does not speak for itself. Are you reading at all or on talking points? It was presented, in your post, to say that you didn't need to read much to know that you didn't need to know anything more about one who... "participated in the kind of rituals described above. "

Which, rather to the point, was not a description of any ritual engaged in, see? Real simple and not uber-scholarly sophistic claptrap. It's simply a quote purposefully taken out of context with intent to create a false argument.

I repeat, double-check your source on that, because an egregious framing like that can only be created purposefully, while it can be innocently repeated by those such as yourself with the best of intentions.

It's not "whitewashing meaning" and how you can make any call on meaning or presumed whitewashing thereof without looking at any material in itself is beyond me. If you'd looked into sources, you'd have found them out quickly and not presented absolute rubbish with such a flourish. If you're researching anything else with the same scruple.... *sigh*

Anyway it is clear that you, like others before, don't need to look in the telescope, and are willing to slide into personal innuendo to avoid it.

Make any judgement call you like, my call on superficiality stands, while I will allow that it is soley based on your idea of "adequate research" that led to your "judgement call" on Crowley and his works.

But I think it stands on firm ground.

93/93

Last edited by Zejith_Themis (2007-10-29 18:59:32)


Love is the law, love under will.
   
     Zejith Themis
      .:420-510:.
    FIAT IUSTITIA
    RUAT COELUM

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#29 2007-10-29 19:19:38

Zejith_Themis
Aspirant
From: Vicenza, Italy
Registered: 2006-10-05
Website

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

And, to address those lamenting the emotional tides of controversy and devotion to beliefs:

I'm not flogging belief here in any fashion, however when outright falsity is presented and I know it to be false, I'm going to point it out.

Don't direct anything at Crowley, good or bad energy. 'E don't need it, 'e's dead.  Spouting falsities for the emotional response they elicit, either by being believed or being called out is directing emotional energy, and tapping that of others to boot.

I'm not talking about anyone personally that I didn't know, where indeed did that come from, lyra?  I'm dismantling some constructed disinfo that's fallen in my lap, nothing more.

This is the gist: if you can't be bothered to get a working model of what kind of proceedings and language these folks were using, then avoid speculation on juicy tidbits "about them" thrown at you from any angle, because you're quite simply a rube waiting to be taken.* There's a big energy funnel right there.

"doesn't matter where it's from"..."speaks for itself".. yet you never found out where it was from to actually let it speak for itself, you're a true believer in wherever you got the spin from.

i suppose it doesn't matter if there were WMD either, of little importance who paid for 9/11... the truth doesn't matter, you have a juicy quote and a gnarly horror scenario in your mind and prefer that.

i can't believe i'm hearing fact-checking deprecated here.

[*i.e. Knowledge Protects, Ignorance Endangers]

Last edited by Zejith_Themis (2007-10-29 19:49:09)


Love is the law, love under will.
   
     Zejith Themis
      .:420-510:.
    FIAT IUSTITIA
    RUAT COELUM

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#30 2007-10-29 19:54:43

dunkelheit
Member
Registered: 2006-08-17

Re: They Sold Their Soul To Rock And Roll: Aleister Crowley

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the works of Crowley, not resort to personal attacks on those individuals that we disagree with.  Zejith, if you had said that my reading of Crowley is superficial, I probably wouldn't have argued, since it appears that I may have quoted from the wrong book.  However, what you said is that _I_ am superficial, and there is a huge difference between those two statements.  So i stand by my claim that you have zero basis on which to make a character judgement of me.
I am seeing a lot of grandstanding here, especially  on the side of Crowley's supporters, and it seems so unwarranted and condescending.  Everyone has a right to their own opinion.  No, I don't have proof that Crowley performed human sacrifices, just like I don't have proof that the current regime participates in those same kinds of rituals.  But there sure is a lot of evidence pointing in that direction.  What is the purpose of participating in a discussion if you are not open to other peoples contributions?  Without a respectful interchange of ideas, this conversation has been reduced to one-upmanship and ego battles.

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