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#46 2008-02-14 05:14:58

nexus
fool
From: Australia
Registered: 2007-04-07
Website

Re: David Wilcock

google wrote:

titmouse_ wrote:

I have a question: Since there are many people who express gnosis in their own fashion, based on their own spiritual gifts--how would intelligence be attributed to spiritual enlightenment? Can someone be ascending on their own individual path without understanding all the terminology and knowledge of the structure, or is it necessary for intellect to play a role?  I feel that gnosis is separate from the ability to verbalize it with cogent language skills.

It's that age old question,

"Who knows more about physics, Albert Einstein or Michael Jordan ?".

That's a good way to put it google.  Theory? or Practise?

The reason i have so much to say is that if "Ra" is going to present a complex teaching, then it will need to represent reality.  If some of the universal realities have been well established in the past then a comparison is in order.  If "Ra" set's himself up beyond our present understanding and beyond Jesus (who has ascended into the I AM Presence) then a deconstruction of "Ra's" "humble offering to humanity" is essential to seekers of truth who accept "Ra's" construct.  The truth is within us and that is where it can be found.  I can only present the contrasts as i see them and leave it to the meditation and reason of others.

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#47 2008-02-14 08:07:22

montalk
forum-keeper-upper
Registered: 2004-03-25
Website

Re: David Wilcock

nexus wrote:

While it is of interest to know how minerals, plants and animals fit into the universal evolutionary scheme i believe they are out of place in a scheme/chart which attempts to illustrate how our own souls are situated within 4 material planes and 3 spiritual planes.  Both concepts are different and they are trying to say different things.

A good theory should explain more things more elegantly. So if this system can account for mineral, plant, and animal evolution -- on top of human and trans-human spiritual evolution -- then that is a good theory. If what you propose requires rejecting mineral, plant, and animal development as irrelevant, then that might come off as defending a lesser theory by dismissing the parts it cannot elegantly explain.

nexus wrote:

If the "Ra" chart is dealing with those 7 densities of self- manifestation it should stick to that in it's numerical scheme.  If it wants to deal with the subject of evolution through the various elemental forms of life (minerals, plants animals), it should perhaps stick to that in a separate numerical scheme.  By trying to do both (or misunderstanding them for each other in a scheme dealing with the 7 vibrational "densities") it loses coherance, creates unnecessary complexity and thereby results in all the semantic difficulties people are having trying to describe what it is actually saying.  That's why i stated matter of factly that it is simpler than that.  Compare both charts above.

To quote Einstein - "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." That means, account for facts as simply as possible, but don't ignore some facts to make it simplistic. The density scale is primarily about gradations in sophistication of consciousness. But the reason why an additional numerical scheme isn't used is that sophistication of consciousness determines everything else including bodily composition and type of environment. So fourth density is as much a state of being as a level of existence, because state of being determines level of existence. It's not as simple as what you propose, but it accounts for more things that must be accounted for. I think the seeming lack of coherence is more due to the style of delivery than the message content itself. It is not that jumbled to me, but I'm familiar with enough sources related to the Ra Material that it's easier to read between the lines and understand parts of it in that bigger context.

nexus wrote:

For the sake of simplicity i would explain by saying that, as far as the souls incarnation in matter is concerned, the 4 planes of matter are cups or vessels of consciousness rather than levels of consciousness.  True, the 4 lower bodies and the 4 planes they occupy are 'conscious' in their own way.  That is, like all elemental energy they have a certain elemental consciousness.   But only as vessels serving the spiritual evolution of the soul.

I can see this working as a separate system that deals strictly with the evolution of the "human" soul, but because it focuses on a smaller slice of existence, it would be a subset of the Ra density scheme rather than an entirely alternate system competing with it. Whereas your simpler system starts at the human stage and says we have four material bodies, the Ra density system would say: sure but these bodies are advanced composites of what exist to a lesser extent in minerals, plants, and animals. That's what I tried to show in my last post, that with each new density new elements are added to the previous composite. We have etheric and so do plants, we have astral bodies and so do animals, but we also have what plants and animals do not have, and likewise there are advanced beings who have all these but also what we don't yet possess. I think it's a simple system that epitomizes the ideas of progress, evolution, and growth.

nexus wrote:

But here, it's noteworthy to recall that "Ra" denies the necessity of the etheric and Buddhic (I AM) levels in the current "harvest", yet in "Ra's" chart above he associates the etheric body with 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th densities. Also, by dismissing the current relevance of the etheric level we are left wondering whether "Ra" proposes that Christ should leapfrog the etheric level in order to embrace the soul in the 3 lower material planes.  And don't forget that you can become the buddha while in this physical body.  There are undoubtedly people in this world today with the spiritual attainment of the buddha.  If you concern yourself with the vibrations of etheric and Buddhic planes (as "Ra" advises against in his version of "harvest") you can become the buddha.  The path of Christhood perfects the soul.  Quietly comes the buddha.

That chart was my interpretation of the Ra density scheme in context of everything I have researched, so the blame is better laid on me if it has errors or shortcomings. That said, what you bring up above involves a crossing of concepts that need to be untangled. The first problem is that the etheric is not identically sixth density, even though it is reflective of it. So when Ra talked about it not concerning us, Ra was referring to 6D graduation. Meanwhile, we here in 3D have etheric bodies that do need attention and refinement for further spiritual progress. Ra was not referring to ignoring development of our etheric bodies. That should have been asked or clarified in the Ra material, but unfortunately it has to be inferred.

As for becoming a buddha, the actual functional definition of becoming a buddha is identical to becoming fourth density STO. Which makes sense, because I doubt that anyone can skip densities by just meditating... but having a major illumination, a total clearing of karma, an activation of a higher awareness, that is something that would bring one from third to fourth.

Another thing that came to my mind is that the system you are describing may not only start at the human stage of development (skipping discussion of mineral, plant, animal) but end there also. In other words, what in your system is the highest, rather than corresponding to 5D, 6D, 7D, etc... corresponds instead to the highest levels of 3D -> 4D initiation.

How the ether relates to 6D is an issue worth resolving. We already explored how astral relates to 4D. It makes sense if we do have all seven bodies in potential, but that only some are active and developed according to our level of spiritual advancement. For instance, we humans have astral bodies, yes, but we are not always aware of them let alone have mastery over them. According to Rudolf Steiner, in dreamless sleep we leave behind the physical and etheric bodies and go with our astral bodies to the spirit realms, remembering nothing of it afterward except what impressions later trickled through into our dreams when the astral returns and merges into the etheric body . And yet what is said about fourth density life indicates that beings there have mastery over the astral body, and can exist in the astral state without a break in the continuity of consciousness. In that way do I think 4D is associated with the astral even though we in 3D also have astral bodies.

Here is what Ra says about the etheric body:

The indigo-ray body which we choose to call the etheric body is, as we have
said, the gateway body. In this body form is substance and you may only see
this body as that of light as it may mold itself as it desires.

And likewise, the etheric body according to other sources is an energy templating field looking like a network of light, responsible for maintaining form. I would call it an attractor field (as in the attractor points of chaos theory) because it alters probability of physical events to conform to nonphysical intent. For instance, the black occult technique of creating an etheric thoughtform to attack another person by causing them to get sick or get into an accident alters probability to accomplish that. There are positive thoughtforms too. Our etheric bodies shape probability to ensure our cells and nerves continue to function against the physical forces of entropy. It is a body of light. And interestingly, the Cassiopaeans claim to be of sixth density, claim to be light beings, and have referred to themselves as thought forms:

A: Remember, we are the light. They are the dark. We are both high
level thought forms reflected at all levels of reality.

To clear this up, let me suggest that like the astral planes, the etheric plane transcends across densities and what part of the etheric we can access, what part makes up our etheric body, is only that slice of it corresponding to our third density level of development. Astral projectors, including many on this forum, know that when you leave your body you can wind up in the etheric level which is a luminous overlay of the physical populated with the occasional thoughtform... but that is obviously not sixth density. This can be reconciled if, just as with the higher astral planes being inhabitable by higher fourth density, so might the higher etheric plane be inhabitable by higher sixth density. What for us is an etheric body closely tied to the physical and astral and conforming to their shape, could at sixth density become the main body, one that is entirely liberated from such constraints.

nexus wrote:

Also we "can access the inner planes" in any state, not just the astral state.  Given we are talking about the soul's access to inner planes it matters not which material body is occupied by the soul.  The opportunity to enter into the inner- Spirit is always present no matter which of the bodies is 'worn' or lost in any plane.

What you are describing here would fit, in the Ra/Cass density scheme, the timeless spirit realm of fifth density. The one thing I get from these sources concerning 5D is that first, lower density beings visit there in between lifetimes, that demonic STS entities exist there too in quarantine, that there are beings native to that density who have transcended physicality, and that all these are not in direct contact with each other in 5D. So that would correspond to what you said about it not mattering what level is occupied by the soul, for the soul is in touch with fifth density regardless. What you call inner planes and define as being restricted to this 5D spirit realm, I was instead defining as the astral planes and now, possibly this spirit realm as the upper non-astral portion of the inner planes.


nexus wrote:

The individual Christ Self (the Son) is a projection of the I AM Presence (the Father).  They are virtually indistinguishable from each other so that when the Son acts (in the service of the soul and other souls) it is always in perfect attunement with the Father.  The Christ Self is spiritual but it is tasked (as mediator between spirit and matter) to descend into the 4 material planes to heal, enlighten and raise the soul back (through Christ) into spiritual union with the I AM Presence.

Okay, thanks for explaining those terms. Then it is clear to me that within the Ra cosmology, the Christ/Son is what becomes fully active in 4D/5D while the I AM / Father becomes fully active in 6D/7D. As for the ecstatic union between Son and Father, they still stay separate, but are in close contact. I mean, the Joseph Benner books (The Impersonal Life) describe meditations for turning within and getting in touch with your Higher Self, and as ecstatic as this union can be, and as much as you retain higher consciousness afterwards, you are still in 3D/4D while the Higher Self is still your future completed self in 6D. Another feature of the cosmology is that in 5D, that is when you are in active dialogue and receive guidance from your 6D self concerning the design of your incarnations in the lower densities. That's another form of union, while maintaining separation.

This leads to another point I wish to bring up, which is that meditation and contact with the inner planes can only take you to the next step, but not beyond -- no skipping densities -- and the example of that is eastern meditators who reach samadhi or nirvana. Although they feel bliss, similar to 4D or experience the dissolution of individuality and merger with the All, similar to 7D, these are neither 4D nor 7D and those meditators still stay here in 3D. It's like feeling the warmth of the sun versus becoming a sun. So when you talk about entering the inner planes, contact with the Father and all that, I have to draw a distinction between this kind of contact where afterwards you come back refreshed and elevated, and actually merging with or becoming the Father in the full sense which only happens after much much more experience, growth, and hard wisdom gained.

nexus wrote:

While the Causal Body has been denoted as the "body of first cause" this doesn't mean that it is the 'highest level' of personal Selfhood, or even the highest level of the impersonal universal Self.  But it is Spiritual and it is not lost as the 4 elemental material bodies are.  It is retained after the Ascension as the sum of all experience in materiality.

Yes, makes sense. So I was right to put the causal body in sixth density in that chart, because the description of the causal body matches both the Higher Self being the sum of all experience in individuality, and our own etheric bodies carrying the imprints of our experiences (according to other sources like Steiner). As a sidenote, the ether body has to be the source of FRV, frequency resonance vibration. FRV is raised or lowered out of how you choose to respond to life experiences, and it also determines what life experiences you attract -- which again is the probability-bending property of the etheric. And what is the bending of probability other than the initiation of chains of cause and effect, of providing the first cause to physical events from beyond the quantum level... the reason I'm bringing these up is to show that when something is close to the truth, it fits from multiple directions.

nexus wrote:

So there is an ascension process (the path of resurrection of the lower- self) and (what David Wilcock speaks of) as the 'Ascension event'.  Many joys, ecstacies and sorrows attend that path.  So Ascension is more than the "activation" of the souls awareness of Christ and the I AM Presence.  That is the path of progressive awakening.  The 'Ascension event' is the permanent merger of the soul to Spirit.  During the soul's path to the Ascension, the Christ and I AM Presence must be "activated".

That much is explained in the Ra Material, though not using the same terms. In regards to 4D graduation, Ra seems to refer to activation of the I AM presence as entering into greater communion with the Higher Self, while activation of the Christ is about the activation of the heart chakra and acquiring a total dedication to love, understanding, and service to those in the lower densities. I still don't know whether the "I AM" presence is the highest of the human phase of development, or the highest of spiritual development altogether. Maybe both, in the sense of only at the highest phase of human development do you enter into full communion with your future self which is at your highest phase of spiritual development. That would make sense to me. Whatever the case, 4D graduation according to Ra would mean transcending linear spacetime, having your heart chakra and love/understanding fully enabled, and serving others under the guidance of your Higher Self. I think that's similar to what you're describing with the Christ/Father relationship upon Ascension.

If they're claiming that their "higher 6th density" level is the loss of individuality or that it is some kind of inevitable merger of individual self- realisation then that isn't true.  Even 7th density at the level of I AM there is individualiy.

Oh, what both Ra and the Cassiopaeans claim is that in sixth density you have mastered the path of the individual spirit, and that while maintaining your individuality you now enter into a harmonized grouping with others so that although individual progress has been exhausted, group progress is still left to explore. And once that has been exhausted, then there's nothing left of either individual or group to explore, and so the path ends by complete merger with the All. Ra and C's differ in where it ends exactly, Ra suggests there could be another octave beyond 7D, while the C's say that it ends there, but I have no way of even hypothesizing whether either of those could be true or false.

nexus wrote:

And so on if you lose the astral body and awake to the mental body as your lowest material body then you still have inner planes (etheric + spiritual planes).  The inner planes are always veiled from regular vision unless they are awakened to from within.  How is this information solving the relationship between 4d and the astral plane?

We're using the same words to mean different things, but I'll summarize what is apparent to me so far.  The etheric and astral are accessible to denizens of multiple densities, spanning across them without being localized to any one of those densities. Astral seems to factor into 2D, 3D, and 4D life with emphasis on 4D. Ether seems to factor into 1D, 2D, 3D, 4D, maybe 5D, and 6D with emphasis on 6D.   The inner planes, if defined as time/space, must therefore include both mental and astral planes because thoughts do not take place in space-time, nor are the astral planes in space-time. As for the ether, going back to the empirical observations of astral projectors and clairvoyants, the ether we can observe seems to conform to the shape of physical objects and beings except in the case of thoughtforms. So the ether still has a space-time aspect to it, maybe it's the interface between space-time and time-space, which would make sense if it is between the physical and astral bodies and functions as a mediator between them.

When you talk about the inner planes being veiled unless awakened to from within, that is another arena of potential confusion in this discussion. See, I have read about this in several places including Steiner's work, and it's clear to me that this "inner vision" is a form of active dreaming, of being able to turn away from the external space/time world and invert yourself into a state similar to when you're dreaming. It's like the dream environment can become to the spirit realms what your computer becomes to the internet -- a mechanism to decode, in your own visual language, the energy and information that transcends visual form and originating from way beyond the level of your waking state. The problem is that attaining this vision is only the beginning, and you are still barred from the higher levels of the inner planes unless you improve yourself spiritually. Not only that, but I question how many of the seers that contributed to the theosophical literature on the spirit planes were discerning enough to access the right levels in the right way without prejudice.

Also, this same ability of inner vision can be used clairvoyantly to see the inner essence and hidden dynamics of waking life events as you observe them with dual vision, one inner, the other physical. And in that state, you can see etheric thoughtforms among other things. So you can be seeing with physical eyes and interact with the world around you, while simultaneously seeing the etheric or even astral aspects of your environment. Don't have anything to disagree with here, but wanted to share my understanding of inner vision in case it differs from yours.

(will have to address your next post another time)


Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

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#48 2008-02-14 15:25:56

google
Member
Registered: 2005-12-01
Website

Re: David Wilcock

nexus wrote:

That's a good way to put it google.  Theory? or Practise?

The reason i have so much to say is that if "Ra" is going to present a complex teaching, then it will need to represent reality.  If some of the universal realities have been well established in the past then a comparison is in order.  If "Ra" set's himself up beyond our present understanding and beyond Jesus (who has ascended into the I AM Presence) then a deconstruction of "Ra's" "humble offering to humanity" is essential to seekers of truth who accept "Ra's" construct.  The truth is within us and that is where it can be found.  I can only present the contrasts as i see them and leave it to the meditation and reason of others.

Don't get me wrong, nexus, you may not believe it but your interpretation of the Bible is changing my life to a certain degree.
In the 1970s I studied and followed the teachings of the Bible the best I could.
I was very disciplined and it went on for about 4 years.
Nobody understood me.
I could feel myself communing with my Higher-self as you put it.
I just didn't have the courage to filter my shadow or in Christian terms, be born again.
Go all the way, although I could understand the glory and power I would realize if I did.
(coward)
The very real process I was feeling enticed me to swallow the interpretation of the Bible I was being lead to believe and I eventually discarded the whole thing.
I couldn't understand a God 'of Love' that had about a 10% success ratio.
ie. Only born again Christians would avoid everlasting hell and we are given only one shot at it.
My now, Panentheistic beliefs can't come to terms as to why God would allow Himself to burn in hell for ever just to have fun playing the game called Creation.     

Given your more symbolic interpretation of the Bible I can now attempt to fuse my past spiritual life with my present.

Thank you.

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#49 2008-02-14 22:58:01

Poffo
Member
Registered: 2005-12-20

Re: David Wilcock

montalk, I think you did a lot there to clear up the many terminological and philosophical variations from various sources, notably the Ra material.  It's almost like watching a dissection experiment in biology class.

Something I've been contemplating in relation to the concepts discussed in this thread is Ra's use of the term/concept "mind/body/spirit complex".

I see it like this:

mind=positive/fire
spirit=neutral/air
body=negative/water

The "complex" part would relate to the union of all three, represented by the earth element, as Earth is a composite or "complex" of +/=/- as explained in hermetic literature (see Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon).  This may be a misconstruction due to lacking intermediate understandings but it will have to do for now.

So far the discussion has focused on the physical/spiritual bodies in relation to what nexus refers to as the 4 planes of matter (physical, astral, etheric, mental - correct me if I'm wrong) and these themselves relate to bodies.  The difference I'm seeing between both "schemes" is the placement or importance of mind and body.

I'm trying to understand why mental is placed into the bodies equation.  From Ra's perspective each 3rd density (and higher) entity is a mind/body/spirit complex.  In this complex of features there must be a mental, bodily, and spiritual element. 4th density would be the realm in which a "social-memory complex" is formed, and which consists of multiple resonant (either STO or STS) mind/body/spirit complexes.  Is this all getting too complex? tongue  From what I know, the mind is truly ALL-encompassing which is why Steiner said (in Intuitive Thinking as a Spiritual Path):

“When we sense, feel (and also perceive) we are separate; when we think, we are the all-one being that penetrates all.  This is the deeper basis of our dual nature.”

So, I'm wondering why the mental would be described as a physical state.  If each of us is a sub-sub-Logos (of the Sun Logos) then we necessarily contain ALL in potential.  To me the Logos, though truly unnameable, consists of a couple of things.  It is the "original thought" or Word (AKA Love) and yet this thought must be "contained" by a mind.  Just as we are microscopic sub-Logoi consisting of mind/body/spirit, so too is the macroscopic Prime Logos which informs all "smaller" versions of itself by its own experience.  Our mind is a less expansive version of the Original Mind that created all of this.

I noticed that Ra, in their 7 bodies explanation, never referred to a "mental body" and this makes sense considering that they see the mind as an integral part, alongside body/spirit, of all existence and entities.  Perhaps what nexus is referring to is the material world self-aware mind that we have in 3rd density which is limited by its nature, in that 3rd density is the first density in which matter loses some of its primacy and the first in which true self-awareness is possible.  But still, why is it designated a body and not given its true credit?

If looking at nexus' model, I'm thinking that the astral and etheric components of the 3rd density entity are equivalent to two distinct yet related parts of the spirit aspect of a mind/body/spirit complex.  The astral relates to emotions, of which the lower form are intimately linked to the animal body.  The etheric seems to relate to impressions as does the mind, in that the ether (or akasha) in it's negative form is the truly impressionable force in the universe which reflects back to the mind.  As I mentioned previously, emotions are intangible, and in the same way so is the mind.  Emotions become more tangible when seen in relation to the body just as mind is more understandable in "light" of the knowledge/experience of spirit.  The astral and etheric seem to fill in the blanks here.

So in between physical body on one end and mind on the other we would have two intermediaries in the form of astral and etheric which are subltle states relating to the spirit function.  mind/body/spirit....complex!

Does the current state of this thread qualify for off-topicness?  I fear that some people might be missing out on the larger relevance of these discussions by it being on a David Wilock thread in the Links section rather than Spirituality and Metaphysics with a more appropriate subject header. 

Wait.....does it even matter anymore? wink

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#50 2008-02-15 16:50:21

google
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Registered: 2005-12-01
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Re: David Wilcock

Is there a catch-22 here ?


Until you master this plane you cannot ascend.
When you do master it, you already are.





Through a glass, darkly may have only been Paul's reality.

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#51 2008-02-15 17:30:06

nexus
fool
From: Australia
Registered: 2007-04-07
Website

Re: David Wilcock

Hi Poffo, good to see you back here.  I'll take up your points too montalk.  It's at times like this i wish i could bi-locate.  And thankyou too google, we realise the ocean in our interactions here all of us.

Poffo wrote:

Something I've been contemplating in relation to the concepts discussed in this thread is Ra's use of the term/concept "mind/body/spirit complex".

I see it like this:

mind=positive/fire
spirit=neutral/air
body=negative/water


The "complex" part would relate to the union of all three, represented by the earth element, as Earth is a composite or "complex" of +/=/- as explained in hermetic literature (see Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon).  This may be a misconstruction due to lacking intermediate understandings but it will have to do for now.

The way i see it, the earth element has the potential to be a composite.   The earth element can only be a "composite" when the (+) Spiritual levels of being descend into the (-) material levels of being, right down to the level of the earth body.  That perfect union between (+) Spirit and (-) matter equals {=} balance.  Balance happens (the earth element becomes a composite) when the (-) of the material levels are transmuted enough to allow the flow of energy from spirit to matter.  That is, resistance is reduced and capacity is increased in the material (-) forms to allow flow.  That is an inner process of identifying and letting go of all impediments to flow.  The path of balance succeeds as the soul surrenders her resistance to the higher- Will of the inner- Christ.  Everything that resists that love is progressively brought to light and transmuted as it is identified by the soul and surrendered.  That includes identifying and surrendering external attachments which might be working at cross purposes to the whole process.
                                                                                "There is nothing hidden that will not be revealed
                                                                                  There is nothing secret that will not come to light"

Consider these relationships between the 4 elements and the 4 material planes.  They've been well established and can be clearly illustrated :

1) Physical plane = earth element
2) Astral plane    = water element
3) Mental plane   = air element
4) Etheric plane   = fire element
                 
Each material plane has both positive and negative polarities.               
All 4 material planes together, constitute the universal negative polarity.  = Omega/Mother = receptacle
Spiritual planes also have both positive and negative polarities.
All Spiritual planes together constitute the universal positive polarity.        =   Alpha/Father  = spirit

These terms of "polarity" have nothing to do with STS and STO per se.  Contrary to the assertions of "Ra", the STS orientation is non- essential to the equation of universal flow.  The Creator "can get action and thought" without dedicated STSelfers at the fringes of the universe. 

There seems to be some question in this discussion about where to place the subtle material planes in order of ascending frequency (octaves).   I know that the metaphysical literature has placed the material planes in various relationships to each other in order of frequency and has sometimes cited only 3 planes. And that's been further complicated by calling the same plane by different names depending on who is writing about it.  This was especially true in the decades surrounding the year 1900.  I believe genuine dispensations used the various terms intentionally to cater to the then present unfolding understanding of science and the perceptions of 'spiritualists and metaphysicians' in regard to the "ether", "astral", "inner levels" "subtle media" etc.  That is, it spoke to the then present understanding while at the same time attempting to break new ground in the timeless fashion of progressive revelation.  But for about 75 years the teaching on the 4 material planes and their correct relationship to each other has appeared in various places.  On this point, mother nature comes to the rescue and reflects the truth to us in the physical octave itself.  We can see the 'metaphor' with our own eyes.

The physical plane itself reflects the 4 material densities within it's 4 elements...  Earth, Water, Air, Fire.

Earth element is very dense ................................. Physical plane 
Water element is less dense, more subtle ............ Astral plane
Air element is even more subtle ............................ Mental plane
Fire element is the most subtle ............................. Etheric plane

If all 4 planes/octaves of materiality are to be seen in their correct relationship, we might further illustrate by using the simile of our own experience on the earth plane in the physical body.  Try wading through the earth in your body.  Not going to happen.  Try wading through the water in your body.... Water is much more subtle than earth and it can easily be done.  Try wading through the air in your body.... Air is much more subtle than water and it's very easy to 'cut' through the air when walking or flying.  In the physical octave fire/light has the properties of both a particle and a wave.  Try wading through light in your body.... It's so subtle your senses would hardly register it.  [To wade through fire you would first have to become fire so as not to be consumed.]

From this illustration it is clear where the 4 material planes are situated in relation to each other.  The 4 material planes are 4 ascending levels of 'media' for all personal expressions (of energy) through the 4 lower bodies.  In each moment, we are acting simultaneously in these 4 planes.   
1) physical action........................................... physical plane
2) emotional feelings..................................... astral plane
3) thought ..................................................... mental plane 
4) memory ..... divine and human memory..... etheric plane

This multidimentional activity may or may not include the conscious realisation of the Christ- consciousness.  It depends on whether the soul is awakening to Christ consciousness.  There may be some subconscious spiritual activity in some or all of these planes of action, but otherwise it will only be the expressions of the lower levels of human consciousness in all 4 octaves.

This personal activity (physical action, feelings, thoughts, memories) is obviously happening simultaneously and seamlessly and each level of activity is happening in it's own plane of action... physical, astral, mental, etheric.  As spirit flows through our 4 lower bodies we are giving form to that energy and those forms are being ex-pressed into the 4 lower planes.... physical, astral, mental, etheric.  Depending on vibration, those forms will either rise back to spiritual planes to increase the magnitude of the causal body.  Or remain vibrationally trapped as a karmic responsibility to transmute.... some time, some place.  Given that these 4 lower bodies are made to be receptacles of the christ- consciousness, then ideally, the soul needs to consciously realise the christ-consciousness in order for that spiritual energy to flow abundantly through the 4 lower bodies and into the 4 planes of matter.  Without some degree of inner contact with Christ, all personal activity in all 4 planes of matter can only be the habitual loops of human thoughts, feelings, and memories.  In reality, the 4 material planes are plasticine to the mind of the Christ 'child'.   "Except ye become as a little child ye shall in no wise enter in" (to the kingdom/consciousness of God).... And ye shall in no wise re-form material forms. 

Poffo wrote:

So far the discussion has focused on the physical/spiritual bodies in relation to what nexus refers to as the 4 planes of matter (physical, astral, etheric, mental - correct me if I'm wrong) and these themselves relate to bodies.  The difference I'm seeing between both "schemes" is the placement or importance of mind and body.

I'm trying to understand why mental is placed into the bodies equation.  From Ra's perspective each 3rd density (and higher) entity is a mind/body/spirit complex.  In this complex of features there must be a mental, bodily, and spiritual element. 4th density would be the realm in which a "social-memory complex" is formed, and which consists of multiple resonant (either STO or STS) mind/body/spirit complexes.  Is this all getting too complex? tongue  From what I know, the mind is truly ALL-encompassing which is why Steiner said (in Intuitive Thinking as a Spiritual Path):

“When we sense, feel (and also perceive) we are separate; when we think, we are the all-one being that penetrates all.  This is the deeper basis of our dual nature.”

So, I'm wondering why the mental would be described as a physical state.  If each of us is a sub-sub-Logos (of the Sun Logos) then we necessarily contain ALL in potential.  To me the Logos, though truly unnameable, consists of a couple of things.  It is the "original thought" or Word (AKA Love) and yet this thought must be "contained" by a mind.  Just as we are microscopic sub-Logoi consisting of mind/body/spirit, so too is the macroscopic Prime Logos which informs all "smaller" versions of itself by its own experience.  Our mind is a less expansive version of the Original Mind that created all of this.

I noticed that Ra, in their 7 bodies explanation, never referred to a "mental body" and this makes sense considering that they see the mind as an integral part, alongside body/spirit, of all existence and entities.  Perhaps what nexus is referring to is the material world self-aware mind that we have in 3rd density which is limited by its nature, in that 3rd density is the first density in which matter loses some of its primacy and the first in which true self-awareness is possible.  But still, why is it designated a body and not given its true credit?

The mind is given it's true credit because it is correctly identified as a subtle material vessel.  And the relationship between the mental body and the Christ Mind is correctly characterised as one of potential. The wine glass can contain the wine if the soul surrenders to higher- Will.

But first to Steiner's quote.  Not being too familiar with Steiner but, when he speaks of "sensing, feeling and percieving" (in the context of his following statements) he could easily have added (carnal) "thought" to the list.  Because he really means the "mundane human consciousness" (the 5 senses and the perceptions of the carnal mind) which does have a sense of separation from Christ.  It maintains a sense of separation because it is being habitually generated from the lower patterns impressed on the 4 lower bodies.  The inner- Christ (when consciously active in the soul and 4 lower bodies) can also "feel, percieve and has an inner- sense" (innocence) of things.  So we must always identify perspective.  What "thinks"?  What is the active principle? (in all our expressions).... Spirit?  Not always.  Or subtle matter? (eg. the mental body).

So i realise it's clear to all that when Steiner speaks of "thinking" he means truly thinking..... intuitive thinking.  And that refers to the Logos within us.... the Christ Mind..... the philosopher's stone...... which transforms all who 'touch' it..... into "all one- being".  This Christ mind is a distinctly higher level of consciousness than the mental body which is a (subtle material) vessel..... a container of that spirit.  Steiner simply made no distinction between them.  The Christ- consciousness can animate the 4 lower bodies and this of course includes the mental body.  So your eventual formulation is correct Poffo.  Somehow you arrived at the correct conclusion yet still went on to question it again in your final statement in the above quote.  Simply add one more level of mind (the mental body) and you have the full understanding of how the Logos is "stepped down" into the material planes as a vessel for itself.  As you wrote Poffo.... ...."and yet this thought (the flow of the individual christ- consciousness) must be "contained" by a mind" (the subtle material vessel of the mental body).  Keep this same concept in mind when looking at the chart i posted.  The 4 material bodies are all material vessels to contain the Christ- consciousness and to express that spiritual light into the 4 material planes.  But first the 4 lower bodies need to be healed.  The deep grooves of habitual ignor-ance (carnality) must be transformed/transmuted in order to increase the capacity of the 4 vessels to contain a greater flow of spirit. 

Jesus knew that the spirit remains unrealised in matter without the purification of the 4 material vessels.  He understood the universal principles of capacity and resistance.  He understood the need to perfect the negative polarity of matter in order to increase the positive flow of spirit.  And he understood that the restoration of the 4 material vessels is always a priority... (The rebuilding of the temple of God, that God may enter the temple). That is why he said:

"And no-one pours new wine- (the greater spiritual flow available now in this new "wave"
  into old wineskins- (into the damaged vessels of the 4 lower bodies)
  lest the wine pours out- (lest the spirit is misqualified by old patterns of thought, feeling and memory)
  and the wineskins are ruined- (and the 4 lower bodies are further damaged)
  Rather, put new wine into fresh wineskins- (first, transmute the 4 lower bodies by a gentle flow of spirit)
  and both are preserved- (because the transformed vessels have new capacity to contain more spirit)

The Christ Self is the individualisation of the Logos.  It is nameable by affirming "I AM" which unlocks the power of the inner- Christ.  We can affirm our oneness with the Logos as Jesus did by speaking the Word in affirmation:

I AM the Resurrection and the Life
I AM the Way the Truth and the Life
I AM the Open Door (doer) which no man can shut
I AM in the Father and the Father is in Me
...

Poffo wrote:

If looking at nexus' model, I'm thinking that the astral and etheric components of the 3rd density entity are equivalent to two distinct yet related parts of the spirit aspect of a mind/body/spirit complex.  The astral relates to emotions, of which the lower form are intimately linked to the animal body.  The etheric seems to relate to impressions as does the mind, in that the ether (or akasha) in it's negative form is the truly impressionable force in the universe which reflects back to the mind.  As I mentioned previously, emotions are intangible, and in the same way so is the mind.  Emotions become more tangible when seen in relation to the body just as mind is more understandable in "light" of the knowledge/experience of spirit.  The astral and etheric seem to fill in the blanks here.

All 4 lower bodies are strongly related to the spirit aspect of the "complex".  Each are receptive vessels awaiting the re-animation of spirit.  And, emotions are always "in relation to" all the 4 lower bodies as are all the activities of each body to the other.  The inter- dimentional relationships are seamless, intimately related and simultaneously active.  And nothing is intangible in it's own material plane of action.  Spirit is made tangible only when consciously realised in the 4 lower bodies.  The only X factor in the whole material equation is how much Christ spirit is flowing through the system. 

Poffo wrote:

So in between physical body on one end and mind on the other we would have two intermediaries in the form of astral and etheric which are subltle states relating to the spirit function.  mind/body/spirit....complex!

In that case you have only the astral body as intermediary.  All subtle states relate to the spirit function.  Spirit in "Ra's" complex has to be the Divine Mind.... represented to the soul as Christ consciousness.  And he hasn't mentioned a "mental body".   So what could "mind" be in the "complex".  In order for the individual Christ Self to act in the material planes it needs individual material bodies.  These are 4 in number.  So, if Christ- consciousness is "true Mind" then in between the physical body on one end and spiritual-Mind on the other are 3 more subtle bodies.... astral, mental, etheric. (in true order of subtlety).

On the other hand if "Ra" is referring to "mind" as the "mental body" (which is not likely seeing as he never mentioned or described it in the 7 'densities') then the astral body is vibrationally below it and the etheric body is vibrationally above it.

BTW, in the description and naming of the 7 "densities", "Ra" doesn't mention the mental body, the Christ Self or the Causal Body.  [And 2 or 3 others were non- descript.]  Poffo, have you or montalk ever come across these named in the "Ra" material?  If so, what are they called, how are they described and where does "Ra" himself place them within the density scheme? 

Poffo wrote:

Does the current state of this thread qualify for off-topicness?  I fear that some people might be missing out on the larger relevance of these discussions by it being on a David Wilock thread in the Links section rather than Spirituality and Metaphysics with a more appropriate subject header. 

Wait.....does it even matter anymore? wink

I think this thread is in the right place.   It is searchable under David's name and is highly relevent.  If it does get moved then "David Wilcock" should be the first 2 words in the title.

Last edited by nexus (2008-02-17 02:17:58)

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#52 2008-02-16 06:03:47

Antaeus
Member
Registered: 2007-07-06

Re: David Wilcock

This has been interesting and I've been wanting to chime in.  But I've been so tired lately.  I work all day, and then I stay up too late every night.  I see the four heavens as Archetypal at the top.  The three that are above the fourth, I can not say much of anything.  I'm probably causing a mess with that last, in that our seven aspects, or ten, have been described, and each of the seven, or ten, are supposed to correspond with each heaven.  I'm not going to visit that subject right now.  I've always been kind of unsure what Archetypal even meant.  I've seen that it is compared with Gupta Vidya, and I think Gupta Vidya is the knowing of that which is esoteric, or secret, hidden.  He holds the appropriate keys.  Arguement has ensued whether [Para Vidya or Noumenal, or Sophia, which is Absolute Knowledge]; or [Gupta Vidya] is dominant.  If I remember correctly, it appears that Sophia is dominant, or superior, but it requires Gupta Vidya to reach Her.  I don't know if I can describe this heaven as ether, but I suppose I can describe it as more ethereal than the three below. 

The Intellectual, 'Ideative' or Creative, is the third.  IICor. 12:2 comes to mind for some reason.  It also reminds me of my state of being, in that although I would quickly claim that I am using my intellect in practically every decision I make throughout each day every day, I'm beginning to see more and more often that in fact, I'm not.  I'm using what I call the psycho-mental or emotional sphere of my being.  Causal thought and effectual action based on likes and dislikes, attractions and repulsions.  As I see this in myself in such frequency, I also become aware that other's do this too.  But I'm quite sure that if asked, they would claim they are using their intellect most of the time.  As far as my attributing a particular description to its make-up, I would again use the word ethereal to a lessor degree than the above, and to a more degree than the below. 

The one just above us, I would say is the Substantive, Formative.  World of Form.  This is what I would attribute the word astral to.  I'm just typing off the cuff, right now.  No notes, or recent memory from studying this.  This is the one I have the least to say about.  This is strange in that I should be attempting to know this heaven as best I can, in that ascending to the next Globe, Globe E, this is where we go next.  I have dreams that are simply reflective of the plane below, and I don't try to remember them, in that they seem unimportant.  The dreams I suspect are of this plane are usually sad circumstances that seem to require that I alter.  I don't like remembering them.  I only see the sad state before, I don't see them again after that.  If I helped, I'd like to see that I did, but, never mind that.  The fact that I don't see them again I'll take as a success.  The stance of those last thoughts were sort of ethereal, with relative substance.

This is Olam h'Asiah.  Oops, I used Qabbalah, old spelling at that.  Physical, Material.  Or World of Labor and Works.  Qeliphoth, shells.  On each of the four, we have seven insights, or even ten.  Sephirah, or more modern, Sefira, I guess can be referred to as insights.  I think the word sephirah refers to an angel or god, or dhyan chohan and attributes and characteristics.  32 or even 40.  It is probably wise to be familiar with the characteristics and attributes.  I think it is a good step in defining your opposite in order to unfold yourself into the harmonious balanced individual ready to go onwards and see more of what there is for you to behold.   I think that the more I realize how frequently I'm utilizing emotion and desire, likes and dislikes, attraction and repulsion, the more I'm leaving intellect behind.  Or perhaps more accurately, keeping closed doors.  Perhaps I'm just abusing myself.

An elemental is a relatively recently ensouled atom.  Yes, they can be just an atom.  Elementals can have any form, and even rapidly changing forms.  They can be as small as an atom or even subatomic particle, to a size of such immensity that you would have to imagine the enormity.  Many are relatively old also.  I'm on a cusp, so I'm water and air.  I think air is the mediator between fire and water.  I can't come up with much to say about earth than perhaps use of the word realization.

Last edited by Antaeus (2008-02-16 06:10:26)


Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
----------------------------------------------------------
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#53 2008-02-16 15:01:14

Capitan
Member
Registered: 2005-12-27

Re: David Wilcock

nexus wrote:

So, "Ra" is mis-characterising the terms "ascension"/"harvest" for both STO and STS.

This brings to me an important question.  What is this ascension/harvest that you speak of?  Are we all to be wisked off to heaven or another realm?  I think one of the largest problems with understanding ascension is the realization that “all” it requires is an incredibly heightened state of awareness.  It seems to me from my research that you can have a taste of 4th Density with the use of entheogens which suggests that all one needs to learn to advance is the activation of their own third eye.  Once the third eye is activated then you are put in touch with the most advanced piece of technology that is available to you on this planet, the human body in fully functioning order.  All you need to travel dimensions and time is your mind.  So then what limits “STS” or “STO” from this transition.  Well, once your awareness is increased to such a higher level, one realizes the ultimate connectedness between all leading one theoretically to an STO path.  However, if one is STS enough, say ~%95, then they can actually understand that we are all one and yet still reject the connection and continue to focus on the self.  This requires a massive consumption of energies from others as their own personal energy connection to the source has been severed.

The reason an ascension has not occurred is that there are those preventing the opening of the third eye of the masses.  We are programmed not to open the third eye, and if we do we are programmed to go mad.  If we don’t go mad then others have been programmed to identify those with an open third eye and attack.  In ways of ostrision for being different, for not being part of the group, and many other reasons if you wish.  A person with an active third eye can easily be found on this planet because they will be spaced off and not all there.  If you think of the mad scientist this is a good example of someone walking the thin line between maintaining a hold of this reality, and walking the 4th density consicouness.  If you want to see someone who crossed the brink of sanity with his 4th density awareness watch the movie “The Beautiful Mind”.  In it John Nash experiences alternative realities that only exist in his mind.  He however was clearly very intelligent.  Our society purposely or non-purposely misdiagnosed his awareness as insanity and prescribed him medications for his “problem”. 

The others that reach an awareness of the higher density often use this opportunity to leave because of the inherent danger to them having such awareness.  Some, such as the famous teachers Jesus, Budh, Krishna, etc stick around to guide others.  Why don’t more stick around?  Well how many children in school stay back to teach the class below them the lessons they learned?  It would be as if an animal received the awareness level of a human being but stayed around to try to teach other animals of the existence of this heightened awareness, when they are just barely aware of the fact that they exist.  Can you imagine the frustration of your consciousness in a cow trying to teach other cows self awareness all the time using the limited cow brain to do this all the time trying not to understand this lesson yourself.  It would be much easier to move on to the next level human body where self awareness is natural rather then something that takes a lot of energy to obtain. 

I believe that saying the planet is going become 4th density means that enough beings will obtain 4th density awareness that the fluidity of their collective reality will begin to spill over into other humans reality who have not yet tried to increase their awareness.  In a sense we are the ascension, those of use who chose to increase our level of awareness and stay here.  I think the 60’s flower power Acid daze was a trial run at the ascension that is being described. 

nexus wrote:

And by claiming that 51% STO will result in a density graduation (as described above) "Ra" has written a prescription that will guarantee that most souls oriented in "Service to Others" (who accept that prescription) will fail to actually Ascend after the conclusion of this physical life.

I think the reason they can prescribe this is that one, like all things mentioned in this way it is a generalization.  For two liken it to saying that if you press the accelerator greater then %51 down on your car it will begin to increase in momentum.  If you are on flat ground with no wind this may be true, but if you are heading up hill or into a wind it may not.  It however is generally true.  All that this means is that when a wave of awareness begins to spread, through the internet or however, if one has a greater inclination to the service of others then one may find themselves increasing their awareness.  Others, like my father who love this 3d reality, and their belief in it will fight a coming increase of awareness and the coming fluidity of it.  Those people whom it is important to have a solid based reality for their own comfort will for the most part not ascend.  Many self centered people will ascend (<%50 STO) but the blatant connection between all things in existence will probably push them over the %50 STO threshold when they are made aware that they are a part of all things.  Now I will go back to the %95 STS.  Some beings will become aware of the fact that they are everything, yet still be able to isolate themselves.  I believe these beings have to have a certain level of self hatred, because in order to cause harm to things at the 4th density level of awareness there almost needs to be a level of understanding that the pain that is caused to others is being caused to themselves. 

nexus wrote:

I argued that losing the physical body at death (which is the only way a 3d person leaves 3d))

I don’t believe this is true.  If you have 4d awareness your mind can take you wherever you want.  Read Carlos Castenada’s description of a sorcerer was to be able to leave this reality without dying.  Many highly sophisticated ancient cultures have just “disappeared”, Buddhist monks have been said to levitate and vanish never to be seen again in meditation.  The difference being that we are trying to bring enough 4d consciousness to this planet through us, that we in a sense are the portals for the 4d awareness to come to earth.  That is my interpretation. 

nexus wrote:

I also don't insist that "Ra's 4th density is the astral plane but i do say that the astral plane is the next density to the earth plane.

4th density is the merger of the physical reality with the astral reality through us.  We are the interface between physical and non physical.  Without consciousness neither reality exists.  We are the commonality between the physical and ethereal planes.  Our consciousness is both the reasons all realities exist and the thing that ties them together.  Just as an animal exists in physical reality but is not aware of its own existence in it, so to do we exist in the astral but are unaware as of yet of our own existence in it.  Dreams are our clue to its existence.  Further understanding and eventually utilization of the astral to where we can exist in the astral and physical at the same time is 4th density consciousness.  We are the bridge between the two. 

To an animal physical life is but a dream.  Once they become conscious in their dream of physical reality they gain self awareness, opening up the door to progress to a body that is better suited to be self aware in the physical.  When in a dream one is not aware that they can affect or make decisions, they just react.  This can be animal living in the physical reality.  For us it is to become lucid in the astral that is our next level of waking up into the 4th density awareness.  Why this doesn’t happen spontaneously I believe has to do with the complete terror I experienced when becoming personally self conscious in the astral.  I have not been able to do it without the usage of force (entheogenic substance).  I do believe that 4th density awareness does require a death of yourself in a way.  Your ego must die.  You have many more beliefs than you can ever realize until they are put under the light and personally scrutiny of 4th density consciousness, and forced to be either burned away or they will drag your physical body to death (or if you are STS %95, you can fight it).

montalk wrote:

What about those non-human, beyond-time, technologically sophisticated, telepathic, cunning dark entities that are best described as 4D STS?

You left out magicians, and sorcerers, I do believe that understanding is very important as their control mechanisms have as much to do with hypnosis and magic as anything else.  Magic being the way scientific understandings are termed before they become scientifically understood.  Magic has the right flavor to give us an understanding of how we are being deceived.


I could not make it to the end of the thread... Running out of time to reply sad .


"...But Nothing is Lost:" "Nothing lasts... nothing lasts. Everything is changing into something else. Nothing's wrong. Nothing is wrong. Everything is on track. William Blake said nothing is lost and I believe that we all move on." - Terrence McKenna - Shpongle - But Nothing Is Lost

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#54 2008-02-19 04:21:11

ape-x
uncooperative slave
Registered: 2007-02-17

Re: David Wilcock

Awesome post Capitan. I was thinking maybe LSD could be called "Aya Lite"
- 1/10 the awareness, and with less terror.
lol

J


Happy to have been a part

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#55 2008-02-19 13:22:36

EON
Member
Registered: 2007-10-09

Re: David Wilcock

hmm...so drugs are prescribed to certain individuals to increase their awarness..wow..thats something what i was thinking on and yeah couple days ago I had a triple stack ecstasy, 2 grams of megnut, chewed some weed dipped in chemicals which tasted soo bitter but what ever drank about 3 cans of beers and yeah ended up smoking more weed and then i dipped on tobacco..... did i miss anything to get more higher than how high I was...lol yeah anyways

so there I was with all that  with in 8 hours of time inside a concert Tiesto playing for the first time in the city...now, as soon as this guy walks upto perform he wears a shirt that has a symbol of sacred heart of jesus but on his right side and its open with a tunnel letting out of his heart meaning snatching the soul of jesus...nicely done... Now, when I got high someone entered my mind cuz am a crack head indeed people enter my head and try to show me down and saying am weak but my love is so strong and my words are so rebellious that it lets everyone shed their skin and make them see their true selves in my mind and they get all stupid and can't battle anyways...

Now what does he play he plays a song in which in the back ground he plays a phrase from the holy quran ( which is to say la ilaha ilallah ) there is only but one GOD that is Allah and the ending part is suppose to be mohammedur rasulallah now I know that. Now my mind goes back to who told me about this and ends up with my father telling me that when every muslim is born a mullah says something inside the babys ears that he can complete that sentence and remembers it he can take out the sword of life. Now, I end up completing that sentence thru my reasoning and then am still ended with two choices...either become the Messenger of Allah. Now whoz, representing Allah here Tiesto cuz when he enters they say the GOD of dj's I use to call myself Dj now what ever. I was not ready to loose then i went back tracking myself and made myself him playing with all the dreams and memories and my reasoning which were perfect. Now that makes me Allah but am not Allah am not Jesus am not Buddha am ONE that is love. So, all I battled on was on the grounds of Love interacting between the darkness and light that empty space those black holes and those dark matter that everyone worries about which cannot be understood thru science yet but plays on love. One might think am stupid and I respect that but he has to wait and see who is really stupid when I get a chance to prove my point. NO, point in battling over stupidity anyways.... so, here I am ended up with a choice to become almighty himself to choose that side...

Another sync i turned out was Tit_mouse saying two faces of Islam. There I saw how Islam really was playing the cover player for both the light and darkness. and still was dividing its entities thru what not music and what not. Now, I still wasn't satisfied went to pull down the entity Allah from the dimensions ended up with Saturn 5th density being the seat. truly said by Ra. but Ra is a spirit who own souls which the whole group he calls Ra. Now he saying he is from the 6 density leaves me with a doubt that he is still sitting their trying to acquire more souls for his soul group. He helped channeled the material respected ONE in all his aspects but still stuck to his plan of gettin more souls aligned to the 6th density under his command so to speak. Not a selfish mission he gave knowledge and he wanted to take what he could acquire. Now, thinking about Ra where did I get him from well, I thought about Jesus Christ now he lies about Jesus whe he says he is still in 5 density that would be saying he is with the density of wisdom where the middle earth is judged thru but the only battle tha is going on is from 4th density. Now Nirvana and total enligtenment that saying having the conciousness of every element and particle would be from 9th density. but Buddha, Jesus went till 7th that is the density of love and crowned entities potentially GODS. but as he says he is not aware of 8th that he knows of that is true.

This millenium started with prophecies of 2012. Year 2001 the new millenium starts with 1. 1/1/01 followed by 2/2/2, 3/3/3, 4/4/4, etc till what 777 so far. That means that one entity who is still alive who is expected to awaken thru and named thru  2012 =23 indeed makes him a devil for all the religions cuz his understanding is beyond religions and rules but he is not really a devil tho. Now, 888 would be a call for the planet earth that it has never seen in the history...well, if i keep writing i would not make sense to an analytical mind and stuck on some concepts that has come true. (your mind makes it real MORPHEUS) so if you have believed in something really hard it became true for you but that doesn't mean it will restrict the mind of someone else who has a better understanding of the same concept that will lead you to say oh its a miracle ...because you cannot explain because you restricted yourself. You only restrict yourselve when you step in the bouderies of love and proving there is no love and if you do so, my friend there is no gurantee how long one could stay against it... but nothing is a miracle in the world of reasoning and unconditional understanding.

I would love to write more but if I get someone to tell me that I might be making some sense to them if not then its always cool cuz am on my way there. And I will always be greatful to noble realm for all the konwledge I have acquired it thru speically Tom.


" Love is the understanding and unspoken bond between you and the creator "

"Loving is an art that is the state of creation"

..........Lyrically am suppose to SHINE.........
..........I am the ONE that makes you  BLIND........
..........And am that darkness that lets you SHINE.........

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#56 2008-02-19 17:50:22

nexus
fool
From: Australia
Registered: 2007-04-07
Website

Re: David Wilcock

I read the transcript of David Wilcock's Odyssey Radio program and i have a few more questions for anyone (most familiar with "Ra") who'd like to reply. 

Wilcock stated: "It's when you get up through higher levels of learning, what would be called 6th Density, where Service to Self and Service to Others- negative and positive- have to merge"

Assuming this concept originates in the "Ra" material, is Wilcock suggesting that at '6th D' the paths of STS and STO merge?  That is, that both paths somehow become indistinguishable and lead to Oneness with God? 

DW also stated.... " Without STO as your starting point for self- integration you're either stuck in indecision, which does not promote spiritual growth or you're walking the negative path which is much more difficult due to the karmic repercussions"

Is Wilcock/"Ra" saying that "self- integration" with God is the result of both paths, STO and STS?  He doesn't say that the STS path doesn't lead to spiritual growth or self- integration.  He just says the STS path is more difficult.   Is he really saying that, apart from the difficulties of the STS path, it too leads to spiritual growth and self- integration?  Or have i misunderstood "Ra"/Wilcock?  I know montalk wrote earlier that the STS path leads to oblivion but Wilcock doesn't appear to be saying that.

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#57 2008-02-19 18:54:41

Sowelu
Member
Registered: 2005-06-26

Re: David Wilcock

I will venture a reply from my own intense explorations, take or leave as you will.

There is only One Truth or One Being, One Source of Life. Eventually... all life streams must realize this in order to "go home". What appears to be "oblivion" to us is merely a recycling... to start again. What appears to be a "new" being formed from a nebulous pool of darkness... is simply the One Life once again taking on a matrix of consciousness "just like" that which chose oblivion last time. A new face, a new name, a new era, a new planet even... it matters not. It is the same sea of potential striving to go home. Since it is derived from, borne of love... it will eventually (and we have eternity) return to love.

So again... eventually, all points of individuation return to source by choice, with awareness, in love... love for all of itself.

The STS path appears to be the more difficult yet any return to Source requires it be explored to its conclusion... incidentally. Perhaps not in "his" or "her" particular human incarnation, but for the soul supporting those individuated lives, yes. As much as we talk of fearing it... that fear makes it us. And do you notice how difficult your life is as you seek unity and harmony, love and enlightenment? STS is inherent in STO. STO is inherent in STS. There can be no other reality, in truth. They are two polarities of One Being.

Benevolent male God is married to a Dragon-Like, Life-Sucking, She-Devil, eternally. Tyrannical Malevolent seeming Reptilian Masculine Monster God is married to Deeply Compassionate, Wise, Unconditionally Loving and ever Comforting Benevolent Divine Mother of All.

We are borne of this. All of us, every one. There is nothing that exists that we are not capable of ourselves. There is nothing that can be conceived that we have not birthed. Somewhere, somewhen, somehow. It is all of us. Follow either pole it will lead you to the other. Follow the middle path you will experience both sides anyway. There is no way around it. To be you, to be realized, you must eventually come to see that there is no separation, there is no evil or good, there is only "being". And you are, in truth, "being" all of it. All the time. And fear is just the forgetting of that.


"The most important decision you have to make is whether you live in a hostile or friendly universe."
~ Albert Einstein

The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes. ~Marcel Proust

The evolution of humanity is an evolution of the heart. The path is through the heart.

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#58 2008-02-19 21:59:30

titmouse_
Kosmic MountainGoat
From: Shores of Lake Titikaka
Registered: 2006-05-26

Re: David Wilcock

Good post Sowelu!

STO
____  = 1

STS

Situational forces create crisis; crisis create opportunities; opportunity presents free-will choice; choice defines a path; paths lead to situational forces. All paths lead to source.

The illusion is that we can hold our autonomy in the face of situational forces. Best to be aware, and forgiving!


Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter


1+1=1

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#59 2008-02-20 00:37:06

Natural Mystic
is
From: aworld w/out invisible borders
Registered: 2005-06-09
Website

Re: David Wilcock

these posts are taking my breath away wink

thank you all


"Beyond the stars a new world awaits me now" - Wintersun

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#60 2008-02-20 07:10:46

Poffo
Member
Registered: 2005-12-20

Re: David Wilcock

Hey nexus.  I've decided to not respond to your reply to my last post because at this point I'd rather leave them unanswered and attempt to work it out within my own esoteric truth matching system.  Thanks for the mental catalyst though!  As I said, I'll most likely post my "findings" on Noble Dreams at some point in the future.  It's clear to me now that you are honestly seeking to understand this particular source and I wish you well on that quest.  Having said that,  I would once again suggest you read the series at least once through to get your own firsthand understanding, it's available for free download on the L/L Research site (go Library section).   It could answer a lot of your questions or it could (and probably would) make you ask even more, but regardless, questions propel us on and are ultimately beneficial to seeking truth.  I hope you find what you're looking for smile

nexus wrote:

Wilcock stated: "It's when you get up through higher levels of learning, what would be called 6th Density, where Service to Self and Service to Others- negative and positive- have to merge"

Assuming this concept originates in the "Ra" material, is Wilcock suggesting that at '6th D' the paths of STS and STO merge?  That is, that both paths somehow become indistinguishable and lead to Oneness with God?

His take on it is found in the Ra material.  The following quote was the best I could find on www.lawofone.info:

Questioner: Then you are saying that as a result of the polarization in consciousness which has occurred later in the galactic evolution, the experiences are much more intense along the two paths. Are these experiences each independent of the other? Must there be action across the potentiated difference between the positive and negative polarity, or is it possible to have this experience simply because of the single polarity? This is difficult to ask.

Ra: I am Ra. We would agree. We shall attempt to pluck the gist of your query from the surrounding verbiage.

The fourth and fifth densities are quite independent, the positive polarity functioning with no need of negative and visa-versa. It is to be noted that in attempting to sway third-density mind/body/spirit complexes in choosing polarity there evolves a good bit of interaction between the two polarities. In sixth density, the density of unity, the positive and negative paths must needs take in each other for all now must be seen as love/light and light/love. This is not difficult for the positive polarity which sends love and light to all other-selves. It is difficult enough for service-to-self polarized entities that at some point the negative polarity is abandoned.

nexus wrote:

DW also stated.... " Without STO as your starting point for self- integration you're either stuck in indecision, which does not promote spiritual growth or you're walking the negative path which is much more difficult due to the karmic repercussions"

Is Wilcock/"Ra" saying that "self- integration" with God is the result of both paths, STO and STS?  He doesn't say that the STS path doesn't lead to spiritual growth or self- integration.  He just says the STS path is more difficult.   Is he really saying that, apart from the difficulties of the STS path, it too leads to spiritual growth and self- integration?  Or have i misunderstood "Ra"/Wilcock?  I know montalk wrote earlier that the STS path leads to oblivion but Wilcock doesn't appear to be saying that.

I can't speak for Wilcock or Montalk (that rhymes!) on this, but my personal take on Ra's explanation is as follows. 

Having developed through the lower half of the 6th density octave the STS entity would be at a point where they have attempted to know the Creator purely through their individuated self rather than from self and other-self (STO path).  They believe they are the one and only god of it all and thus must consolidate all of Creation into their experience by manipulating all the lesser worthy Creators that they believe must be brought under control so that the STS entity is the only true Creator in its reality.  This uniqueness is absolutely true, as all individuated points of the Creator are unique and will develop back to unity in a totally new way.  But the difference between STO and STS in this regard is that STS uses their unique Creator essence to justify their dominance over all other unique Creators while STO uses this uniqueness to create an even more uniquely dynamic path back to unity by uniting with other Creators to do it in a whole new and harmonious way for the good of all involved. 

The mid-6th density STS entity faces a dilemma in that it has aquired the experience of almost the entire Creative octave yet cannot go any further because the nature of the ascent to 7th density is of the grand revealing and unification of all separated parts of the Creator/Creation.  Ra mentioned that reversing one's polarity from negative to positive at this level is quite easy because of the total wisdom of the STS entity.  It must inevitably make the choice to merge with positive 6th or else never reach the unity it has sought for since it originally polarized in the 3d -> 4d graduation.  It is a simple effort for the 6th density graduating STO entity to merge with their STS counterpart because they have understood the validity of that opposing pole since they originally polarized STO and ultimately seek harmony.  The STS entity will however experience more difficulty merging with their STO counterpart because it would essentially be admitting that it's path has been an illusion.  I imagine that at the point where this takes place that accepting the positive half of the Creator for what it is would be a logical next step and would mean that the STS path wasn't all for naught in the end.

So essentially, the STS path is the false/illusory path to unity and STO path is the true/real path.  The negative pole of Creation by it's very archetypal nature is illusory and as such I don't think it unreasonable to characterize the negative path in the same manner.  They all eventually go back to the same place but as Ra, Wilcock, and others have pointed out, the negative path is much more difficult because it goes against the grain of truth. I guess it can be said that an entity can't TRULY ascened up the negative pole and fully unite with the One because it must necessarily reverse polarities first to be fully "accepted" home by it's Father once again.  But under the Ra cosmology, the STS path allows one to get as close to "negative unity" as possible, if that makes any sense, but completing the path within the negative framework is ultimately impossible.  In its highest form the STS polarity can no longer develop spiritually because such development depends on harmony, as Air (spirit) provides between Fire and Water.  It has become SO self-integrated that it can longer see the same in others.  I think this point of reflecting on its own stagnation would be the one in which the polarity switchover takes place and the unity game can proceed towards its intended end.

This last excerpt might shed a little more light on the STS validity question:

Questioner: I’m trying to understand how a group such as the Orion group ["STS crusaders"] would progress. How it would be possible, if you were in the Orion group, and pointed toward self-service, to progress from our third density to the fourth. What learning would be necessary for that?

Ra: I am Ra. This is the last question of length for this instrument at this time.

You will recall that we went into some detail as to how those not oriented towards seeking service for others yet, nevertheless, found and could use the gateway to intelligent infinity. This is true at all densities in our octave. We cannot speak for those above us, as you would say, in the next quantum or octave of beingness. This is, however, true of this octave of density. The beings are harvested because they can see and enjoy the light/love of the appropriate density. Those who have found this light/love, love/light without benefit of a desire for service to others nevertheless, by the Law of Free Will, have the right to the use of that light/love for whatever purpose. Also, it may be inserted that there are systems of study which enable the seeker of separation to gain these gateways.

This study is as difficult as the one which we have described to you, but there are those with the perseverance to pursue the study just as you desire to pursue the difficult path of seeking to know in order to serve. The distortion lies in the effect that those who seek to serve the self are seen by the Law of One as precisely the same as those who seek to serve others, for are all not one? To serve yourself and to serve others is a dual method of saying the same thing, if you can understand the essence of the Law of One.

Sowelu, that was an awesome post, thank you!

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