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#31 2008-02-12 12:01:06

nexus
fool
From: Australia
Registered: 2007-04-07
Website

Re: David Wilcock

google wrote:

Wilcocks said this about Ascension.


Wilcock wrote:

Some people who are practicing the positive path are going to experience this Ascension event, rather than simply a re-loading of the Earth in the astral. The Ascension process is the most ecstatic merger with your Higher Self you will ever experience in any lifetime. It’s a complete homecoming. It’s like everything you ever worked for – all the sacrifice, all the struggle, all the tears and all the pain – suddenly comes to an Omega Point. It is a true quantum shift, where you come into direct contact with a representation of God that is the most inspiring to you that it ever could be.

You actually experience a review of not just this life, but all of your past lives. It essentially moves you through a multi-incarnational life review, to get you down to the exact level of how much progress you’ve made. 

Now, when I say this to people, they freak out: “Oh, my gosh, that means if I haven’t progressed, I might fail somehow!” What we tell them – ‘we’ meaning the higher forces and myself – is, “Look. You have the power to change your life right now.”

This earth is moving into a higher plane where unconditional love is the law of the land. There’s not going to be Illuminati on the planet anymore. The only level in which negatives and positives interact on the same planet is our level now, which the Law of One series calls “third density”. 

As soon as you break out of this level, there’s basically segregation by vibration. It’s not a racist thing – it’s just that the frequencies don’t interrelate any more.

The earth is essentially moving into a sort of Edenic paradise – a Utopia. We have the power to control how quickly and how expediently we move through that by the diligence we have in our own personal growth.

A couple things stand out to me after reading this quote from David Wilcock.

Wilcock gives an inspiring account of the real Ascension.  He also says .... "Some people practising the positive path are going to experience this Ascension event rather than simply a reloading of the earth in the astral."  This version of "the Ascension event" is so true and it is the reason i have questioned the "Ra" material.  Wilcock departs with "Ra" on this point and so do i.  While "Ra" focuses on a lesser version of "harvest", Wilcock hits the nail on the head.  These are the souls i have been concerned about....  The ones ready to re-unite with their I AM Presence in the Ascension.  By these statements Wilcock clearly understands the difference between the real Ascension and that lesser manifestation which i've been calling the "Ra" prescription for "harvest".  He has not swallowed "Ra" whole.  I am relieved.

My question relates to this part of Wilcock's statement... ".... rather than simply a reloading of the earth in the astral".  Do we assume from that that our questions regarding "4th density harvest" now have a partial answer?... that is... within the "Ra" scheme?  Is 4d the astral plane?  Perhaps the higher levels if that is what the "Ra" scheme held for STO souls?  Sounds like it from that statement.  Anyone?

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#32 2008-02-12 12:35:24

Daisy
Member
Registered: 2006-07-28
Website

Re: David Wilcock

montalk wrote:

Then what do you call it when someone of the STS path acquires so much occult power, knowledge of manipulation, and experience in conquest that remaining a limited third density human serves no further purpose? What about those non-human, beyond-time, technologically sophisticated, telepathic, cunning dark entities that are best described as 4D STS? How did they get there? If they are just lower astral beings, how is it that they easily become fully physical, have underground bases here in America, have ships and physical instruments? They can access the astral plane but don't seem to not be limited to it.

Perhaps those entities work through human beings? i.e. maybe they only have power in the physical realm if they can get physical beings, either consciously or unconsciously, to do their work for them. Just a thought.


"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain

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#33 2008-02-12 13:03:05

DanB
Member
Registered: 2007-06-05

Re: David Wilcock

I am putting something very personal here in this thread because I feel it applies. I got a "glimpse" of that ascension energy last January...and it was a beautiful and focus altering experience. ANYONE can experience this in their own way and many, many will be experiencing this through their own personal 'meditation and/or quiet time' processes, imho! I feel that the numbers of people grasping onto their inner divineness is about to take a quantum leap...this is what I "feel" personally!

This one post of my shares some of that "happening" of mine last January!
Post #65 :
http://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic. … 87&p=5

This statement of Wilcock's posted by Google in this thread says it all as far as I am concerned and my personal experience(that anyone can attain in their own way, especially now...right now) showed me and is showing me each and every new day that we ARE the energy that helps expedite the coming of this  "Paradise"!
The earth is essentially moving into a sort of Edenic paradise – a Utopia. We have the power to control how quickly and how expediently we move through that by the diligence we have in our own personal growth.

Active Personal Meditation and Active Unconditional Love gives each of Us an energetic roll in the opening of the door to the 4th for more and more and more to feel and see!

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#34 2008-02-12 13:10:46

nexus
fool
From: Australia
Registered: 2007-04-07
Website

Re: David Wilcock

DanB wrote:

I am putting something very personal here in this thread because I feel it applies. I got a "glimpse" of that ascension energy last January...and it was a beautiful and focus altering experience. ANYONE can experience this in their own way and many, many will be experiencing this through their own personal 'meditation and/or quiet time' processes, imho! I feel that the numbers of people grasping onto their inner divineness is about to take a quantum leap...this is what I "feel" personally!

This one post of my shares some of that "happening" of mine last January!
Post #65 :
http://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic. … 87&p=5

This statement of Wilcock's posted by Google in this thread says it all as far as I am concerned and my personal experience(that anyone can attain in their own way, especially now...right now) showed me and is showing me each and every new day that we ARE the energy that helps expedite the coming of this  "Paradise"!
The earth is essentially moving into a sort of Edenic paradise – a Utopia. We have the power to control how quickly and how expediently we move through that by the diligence we have in our own personal growth.

Active Personal Meditation and Active Unconditional Love gives each of Us an energetic roll in the opening of the door to the 4th for more and more and more to feel and see!

Bless you DanB.  This is what i have been talking about.  That no-one settles for any less than what Wilcock talked about in his comments posted above.  The Ascension is so much more than "a fourth density 'graduation'".

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#35 2008-02-12 15:19:10

google
Member
Registered: 2005-12-01
Website

Re: David Wilcock

Sorry nexus.
I should have provided a link to that interview where David says that.

http://www.divinecosmos.com/index.php?o … ;Itemid=70

His idea is that during the earth changes that will occur on planet Earth between 2011 and 2013 people will be flipped to the astral plane and some will be flipped back after the changes. Interestingly,  this corresponds to the Christian idea of the Rapture.

The Law of One series implies that in the period of 2011 to 2013, everyone on earth flips over into this astral plane. The majority of them will immediately ‘re-load’ the earth, exactly as it was in their memory, before anything happened. They will not experience earth changes. They will not see tidal waves or earthquakes. In fact, you’re basically in an indestructible body in the astral plane. So, their lifespan might actually end up being a lot longer than it would have been if they had continued living in the normal earth.

Last edited by google (2008-02-12 15:20:26)

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#36 2008-02-12 18:43:18

titmouse_
Kosmic MountainGoat
From: Shores of Lake Titikaka
Registered: 2006-05-26

Re: David Wilcock

google wrote:

Sorry nexus.
I should have provided a link to that interview where David says that.

http://www.divinecosmos.com/index.php?o … ;Itemid=70

His idea is that during the earth changes that will occur on planet Earth between 2011 and 2013 people will be flipped to the astral plane and some will be flipped back after the changes. Interestingly,  this corresponds to the Christian idea of the Rapture.

The Law of One series implies that in the period of 2011 to 2013, everyone on earth flips over into this astral plane. The majority of them will immediately ‘re-load’ the earth, exactly as it was in their memory, before anything happened. They will not experience earth changes. They will not see tidal waves or earthquakes. In fact, you’re basically in an indestructible body in the astral plane. So, their lifespan might actually end up being a lot longer than it would have been if they had continued living in the normal earth.

Metanoia  smile  Theoria;  Theosis

http://frimmin.com/faith/theosis.html

Matthew Fox, an Episcopal priest known for his many works on Christian mysticism, agrees. The final section of his masterwork, The Coming of the Cosmic Christ, is titled "A Vision of the Second Coming," and considers the coming of the Kingdom of God to be the work of the God's children acting in their divinization, restoring the Earth and rebuilding all human institutions to eliminate hunger, hopelessness, and violence.

I have come to believe that God has also entrusted us with far more of the responsibility of saving the world than we might commonly suppose. He is the vine, we are the branches. He is the Light of the world, and we are the bulbs through whom it shines through.  Christ is creating little Christs, flooding the world with mini-Christs, and our responsibility is transform ourselves and our world through the love of Christ, and the light of Christ, the Good News of Christ, into ever more and more Christedness.  Theosis is one more reason why I believe the "emergency airlift" idea of "the Rapture" is completely mistaken.

"Great women and great men give great and eloquent speeches; the wildflower has greater power to render the soul speechless"
~~carefulcarpenter

Reason built on faulty logic, a systematic deviation from Aristotle's teachings--and rationalism, are walls which imprison us from this Rapture.

"Man has built a majestic forrest of thought.....and the children climb the trees and play.... la di da, la di day"
~~carefulcarpenter

http://www.julianhotel.com/images/orchid.jpg
Mountain Iris

Last edited by titmouse_ (2008-02-12 19:24:58)


Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter


1+1=1

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#37 2008-02-12 20:04:32

google
Member
Registered: 2005-12-01
Website

Re: David Wilcock

..... for certain WAITING for the Rapture is a mistake.

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#38 2008-02-12 20:56:39

montalk
forum-keeper-upper
Registered: 2004-03-25
Website

Re: David Wilcock

Daisy wrote:

montalk wrote:

If they are just lower astral beings, how is it that they easily become fully physical, have underground bases here in America, have ships and physical instruments? They can access the astral plane but don't seem to not be limited to it.

Perhaps those entities work through human beings? i.e. maybe they only have power in the physical realm if they can get physical beings, either consciously or unconsciously, to do their work for them. Just a thought.

Based on personal experience and other sources besides the Ra Material, I agree with you that they can get physical beings to do their work. David Icke and others suggest people can be "shadowed" by negative beings, where they are being puppeteered through some psychic linkage with a dark entity that remains back in the nonphysical condition. The phenomenon of entity attachments, whether by discarnate humans or soul fragments of another, can also influence a person's thoughts. So that does seem possible.

However, there is still a difference between 4D beings and purely astral entities. The astral ones are limited to the astral/etheric state, while the 4D beings are partly and variably physical and can reside in the astral/etheric state too. For instance, 4D STO are claimed by several sources (Cassiopaean Material, Orfeo Angelucci books, folklore about divine agents in beggars clothing, personal anecdotes, biblical accounts of the Sons of Man) to easily walk among us in flesh-and-blood, even though they could just as easily dematerialize and exist natively in some higher nonphysical state. Same with the 4D STS, where reptilians are said to exist natively in an etheric/astral state where they only need loosh to feed on, whereas when they become physical they need to eat flesh and blood too. Staying physical takes a lot of energy for them, so they have engineered grays as hardy bi-density probes to allow the reptilians to interact with the physical without having to leave their nonphysical state. Grays have been witnessed both in their physical form and by astral projectors in their nonphysical form. See, so everything points to 4D being variably physical, sometimes physical and sometimes astral/etheric depending on choice and purpose of design.


Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

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#39 2008-02-12 23:14:47

montalk
forum-keeper-upper
Registered: 2004-03-25
Website

Re: David Wilcock

(continuing from my post #30)

(...and continuing this hair splitting of the Ra Material... tongue)

nexus wrote:

For over a century the basic paradigm of the 7 levels of universal manifestation have been revealed.  Basically they are 4 material levels and 3 spiritual.  The basic numerology and geometry (eg. the square pyramid) have been outlined to illustrate and explain the 7 levels.  All levels have been given names as have the 'bodies' that relate to each level.  It's a basic well known paradigm that i summarised on page 13 (post #191) of the "magnetics and ascension" thread which anyone is welcome to search and see if it makes sense and resonates.  I accept that it is true.  Because i do, i was speculating about where "Ra's" '4th density' might fit into that scheme.

From page 13, post #191:

nexus wrote:

1st density = physical earth body in 3d physical plane. 

2nd density = astral body in astral plane

3rd density = mental body in mental plane                             MATERIAL
                                                                     
4th density = etheric body in etheric plane

.............................................................................................      ............

5th density = white light consciousness of christos / boddhi
                                                                                                   higher
6th density = causal body in plane of first cause                     SPIRITUAL
                                                                                                   
7th density = I AM Presence /  Atman / Father

.............................................................................................       ............

I know your system above was intended to be completely different from that of Ra. But since you were asking where 4th density fit into  the system of four material and three spiritual states according to the Ra/Cassiopaean cosmology, it would be something more like this:

1st density (primal matter) = physical

1st density (mineral, plants) = physical, etheric
                                                                                              PHYSICAL
2nd density = physical, etheric, astral

3rd density = physical, etheric, astral, mental

....................................................................................................................................                                                                       

4th density = physical / etheric, astral, mental, Christos                    VARIABLY PHYSICAL

....................................................................................................................................

5th density = etheric / astral, mental, Christos, causal

6th density = mental, Christos, causal, I AM                                           NONPHYSICAL

.....................................................................................................................................

7th density = All, everything, everywhere

This system describes the default composite nature of entities of each density. The general gist, anyway. So instead of "fourth density is the astral plane" this says rather "fourth density beings are variably physical or etheric, can access the inner planes in their astral state, have a mental core of self-awareness, have the white light / christos activated (if STO). (The STS case is for another discussion, but essentially one becomes even more separated from the Higher Self and hitched instead to the upper demonic echelons of the STS hierarchy).

There is potential for confusion between the white-light / christos and the I AM / Atman / Father.  Could you clarify what those mean to you, and what the difference is between them? If I understand you correctly, your idea of ascension is the activation of the I AM presence. David Wilcock says ascension involves an ecstatic merger with the Higher Self. Ra says the Higher Self is your sixth density "future" self. Therefore I place the I AM / Atman / Father in sixth density.

But according to Ra, graduating to 4D STO, even though it means you will have an active and open communication line with your Higher Self, does not mean you become that sixth density Higher Self. At 4D, the I AM presence doesn't form your center of gravity, but is more something still further up the spiritual evolutionary ladder that you gain a new kinship with. However, what is activated in the 4D STO state is the heart, and thus the Christ consciousness, which is all about love, understanding, and redeeming those less fortunate (as in 3rd density beings). Therefore I had to put the white-light / christos as the new thing in fourth density. The STO ascension that Ra talks about is basically the activation of Christ consciousness, with the addition of forging more permanent conscious communion with the Higher Self.

Have to add that 4D STO and 6D STO have a very close kinship, the latter having a more oracular or advisory function to the first. The lesser 6D STO is the "personal channel" (according to Cass terminology) a.k.a. the Higher Self, while the higher 6D STO is the "group channel" a.k.a. "sixth density social memory complex" of which the Ra and the Cassiopaeans claim to be. All that isn't stated outright in the Cass and Ra material, but it's apparent in reading between the lines and consulting other sources like Seth Speaks or Allies of Humanity where this difference between lower and higher STO entities demonstrates itself.

Poffo wrote:

Ra and other "Confederation" sources mention both inner and outer planes for 3rd density, and I believe this goes for all densities.  The inner planes relate to the time/space experience while the outer relates to space/time.  Think of the inner planes (time/space) as being veiled from regular vision like the back side of the body while the outer planes (space/time) are visible as is the front side.

Thanks for your post, it cleared a lot of things up for me. And it got me thinking about the space/time vs time/space and inner planes connection, which goes a long way toward solving that conundrum of how 4D relates to the astral planes.

Last edited by montalk (2008-02-12 23:27:15)


Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

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#40 2008-02-13 01:07:24

Millenium
Member
Registered: 2006-05-30

Re: David Wilcock

Titmouse quoted:

Matthew Fox, an Episcopal priest known for his many works on Christian mysticism, agrees. The final section of his masterwork, The Coming of the Cosmic Christ, is titled "A Vision of the Second Coming," and considers the coming of the Kingdom of God to be the work of the God's children acting in their divinization, restoring the Earth and rebuilding all human institutions to eliminate hunger, hopelessness, and violence.

I have come to believe that God has also entrusted us with far more of the responsibility of saving the world than we might commonly suppose. He is the vine, we are the branches. He is the Light of the world, and we are the bulbs through whom it shines through.  Christ is creating little Christs, flooding the world with mini-Christs, and our responsibility is transform ourselves and our world through the love of Christ, and the light of Christ, the Good News of Christ, into ever more and more Christedness.  Theosis is one more reason why I believe the "emergency airlift" idea of "the Rapture" is completely mistaken.

Christ's Body

Christ has no body now on earth but yours
You are the only hands with which he can do his work,
Yours are the only feet with which he can go about the world,
Yours are the only eyes through which compassion
can shine forth upon a troubled world
Christ has no body on earth now but yours-

                             Teresa of Avila

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#41 2008-02-13 09:01:14

SiriArc
AD VO ZIN
From: Denver
Registered: 2005-08-03

Re: David Wilcock

Space/Time

Time/Space



http://forum.noblerealms.org/img/avatars/793.jpg

http://forum.noblerealms.org/img/avatars/2.jpg



http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/siriarc/two_cents.gif


Jane Roberts had an Experience / Dream:

She entered a Library, walked through it, then Exited Outside from a back door.

There, As She Turned ( Like The Center Point Of A Circle), She Looked Out Into Various Times (i.e. Myriad Time Lines - Like a Pie Sliced into X Pieces).......

So, Like The Relative Totality Of The Circle That YOU Are:

Awareness From The Center Outward Might Represent:

Time/Space

Awareness From The Circumference Inward Might Represent:

Space/Time

Where The Slash (/) = Divided By.......


11   23   11

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#42 2008-02-13 09:58:46

nexus
fool
From: Australia
Registered: 2007-04-07
Website

Re: David Wilcock

I was half way into a reply to post #30 before bedtime and returned this AM to find this continuation.  I have some points to add here before going back to post #30.

montalk wrote:

(continuing from my post #30)

(...and continuing this hair splitting of the Ra Material... tongue)

nexus wrote:

For over a century the basic paradigm of the 7 levels of universal manifestation have been revealed.  Basically they are 4 material levels and 3 spiritual.  The basic numerology and geometry (eg. the square pyramid) have been outlined to illustrate and explain the 7 levels.  All levels have been given names as have the 'bodies' that relate to each level.  It's a basic well known paradigm that i summarised on page 13 (post #191) of the "magnetics and ascension" thread which anyone is welcome to search and see if it makes sense and resonates.  I accept that it is true.  Because i do, i was speculating about where "Ra's" '4th density' might fit into that scheme.

From page 13, post #191:

nexus wrote:

1st density = physical earth body in 3d physical plane. 

2nd density = astral body in astral plane

3rd density = mental body in mental plane                             MATERIAL
                                                                     
4th density = etheric body in etheric plane

.............................................................................................      ............

5th density = white light consciousness of christos / boddhi
                                                                                                   higher
6th density = causal body in plane of first cause                     SPIRITUAL
                                                                                                   
7th density = I AM Presence /  Atman / Father

.............................................................................................       ............

I know your system above was intended to be completely different from that of Ra. But since you were asking where 4th density fit into  the system of four material and three spiritual states according to the Ra/Cassiopaean cosmology, it would be something more like this:

1st density (primal matter) = physical

1st density (mineral, plants) = physical, etheric
                                                                                              PHYSICAL
2nd density = physical, etheric, astral

3rd density = physical, etheric, astral, mental

....................................................................................................................................                                                                       

4th density = physical / etheric, astral, mental, Christos                    VARIABLY PHYSICAL

....................................................................................................................................

5th density = etheric / astral, mental, Christos, causal

6th density = mental, Christos, causal, I AM                                           NONPHYSICAL

.....................................................................................................................................

7th density = All, everything, everywhere

The scheme i outlined above is completely different to the "Ra"/Cass scheme.  The only similarities i can see are that 7 'densities' are listed and that virtually all the same words are used.  I see "Ra's" scheme as a jumble of mixed concepts (the evolution of elemental consciousness ...and... vibrational densities) and a related incongruous admixture of "levels of consciousness" and " levels of density" as it relates to the soul's incarnational experience.  Because it tries to say so much, it ends up saying very little to me.  While it is of interest to know how minerals, plants and animals fit into the universal evolutionary scheme i believe they are out of place in a scheme/chart which attempts to illustrate how our own souls are situated within 4 material planes and 3 spiritual planes.  Both concepts are different and they are trying to say different things.  It is why the numbers don't make sense in relation to the 7 levels/densities of Self and their relationship to our own incarnational experience in matter.  If the "Ra" chart is dealing with those 7 densities of self- manifestation it should stick to that in it's numerical scheme.  If it wants to deal with the subject of evolution through the various elemental forms of life (minerals, plants animals), it should perhaps stick to that in a separate numerical scheme.  By trying to do both (or misunderstanding them for each other in a scheme dealing with the 7 vibrational "densities") it loses coherance, creates unnecessary complexity and thereby results in all the semantic difficulties people are having trying to describe what it is actually saying.  That's why i stated matter of factly that it is simpler than that.  Compare both charts above. 

Although the graduations are jumbled the "Ra" scheme/chart is attempting to illustrate the graduating evolutionary levels of consciousness, not "vibrational densities" as such.... (and it has concertina'd 7 levels of personal experience into 6).  For the sake of simplicity i would explain by saying that, as far as the souls incarnation in matter is concerned, the 4 planes of matter are cups or vessels of consciousness rather than levels of consciousness.  True, the 4 lower bodies and the 4 planes they occupy are 'conscious' in their own way.  That is, like all elemental energy they have a certain elemental consciousness.   But only as vessels serving the spiritual evolution of the soul.  Given that, and given that those 4 material levels are our soul's present occupation, why not first grade those according to density (as they are in "my" chart above) and show the levels of spiritual consiousness that can and do occupy them.  There is a simplicity in that as it relates to the soul's incarnation in the 4 planes of matter (and the process of resurrection and Ascension out of matter) and because of that simplicity, there is beauty in it too.  It's true there is complexity in mathematics.  But the closer one gets to the 'equation of reality' the simpler things can be represented.  Complex mathematical equations often get boiled down through a process also and are descibed (when simply represented) as "beautiful".

montalk wrote:

This system describes the default composite nature of entities of each density. So instead of "fourth density is the astral plane" this says rather "fourth density beings are variably physical or etheric, can access the inner planes in their astral state, have a mental core of self-awareness, have the white light / christos activated (if STO). (The STS case is for another discussion, but essentially one becomes even more separated from the Higher Self and hitched instead to the upper demonic echelons of the STS hierarchy).

It's simpler than this too and illustrates that the "Ra" chart is jumbled in several ways.  I'll elaborate in my reply to post #30 and give part of an explanation there....  And further on in this post too.  But here, it's noteworthy to recall that "Ra" denies the necessity of the etheric and Buddhic (I AM) levels in the current "harvest", yet in "Ra's" chart above he associates the etheric body with 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th densities.  Also, by dismissing the current relevance of the etheric level we are left wondering whether "Ra" proposes that Christ should leapfrog the etheric level in order to embrace the soul in the 3 lower material planes.  And don't forget that you can become the buddha while in this physical body.  There are undoubtedly people in this world today with the spiritual attainment of the buddha.  If you concern yourself with the vibrations of etheric and Buddhic planes (as "Ra" advises against in his version of "harvest") you can become the buddha.  The path of Christhood perfects the soul.  Quietly comes the buddha.

Also we "can access the inner planes" in any state, not just the astral state.  Given we are talking about the soul's access to inner planes it matters not which material body is occupied by the soul.  The opportunity to enter into the inner- Spirit is always present no matter which of the bodies is 'worn' or lost in any plane.  This attunement can awaken the soul to any inner plane.  This means, as you know, that right now in this physical body we can also activate/awaken to the white light of Christos and through that, recieve the illumination of the I AM Presence (as Guatama Buddha and others have).  It makes a case for what the simpler chart is showing.  That at any "density" of the 4 planes of materiality, the soul can consciously awaken to the Christ Consciousness and the Buddha and demonstrate self- mastery over the lower elements.... physical, astral, mental, etheric.  These elements obey the 'word' of the Christ and Buddha and conform to patterns according to the will of the Christ mind.

montalk wrote:

There is potential for confusion between the white-light / christos and the I AM / Atman / Father.  Could you clarify what those mean to you, and what the difference is between them? If I understand you correctly, your idea of ascension is the activation of the I AM presence. David Wilcock says ascension involves an ecstatic merger with the Higher Self. Ra says the Higher Self is your sixth density "future" self. Therefore I place the I AM / Atman / Father in sixth density.

The individual Christ Self (the Son) is a projection of the I AM Presence (the Father).  They are virtually indistinguishable from each other so that when the Son acts (in the service of the soul and other souls) it is always in perfect attunement with the Father.  The Christ Self is spiritual but it is tasked (as mediator between spirit and matter) to descend into the 4 material planes to heal, enlighten and raise the soul back (through Christ) into spiritual union with the I AM Presence.  So first, the soul must be healed in matter (of it's ignorance, it's karmic- self and karmic works/energies) and, in the process, be raised in vibration to perfectly resonate in oneness with Christ.  The closer the soul gets to the primal spiritual vibration of Christ love, the easier it is to percieve the higher Will.   Joy, love, wisdom and power increases as that union is forged.  When that oneness with Christ is complete in the 4 material planes (ie. the karmic energies are transmuted and the soul is without 'blemish') then the I AM presence draws the soul and Christ (one), out of the material planes into a permanent fusion with the I AM in spiritual planes.  In that ritual, the soul, the Christ and the I AM Presence become ONE---- in ecstatic union----at the level of the I AM Presence in Spirit.  This means a "whole" new way "being" because the full spiritual perspective is gained.  The Ascended Adept now has unfettered freedom (according to the plan of hierarchy and according to the laws of freewill and karma of incarnate souls) to enter into the material planes to assist and defend their unascended brothers and sisters.  Love hath no bounds.  They may even sponsor an unascended initiate to give spiritual teachings to the world.

While the Causal Body has been denoted as the "body of first cause" this doesn't mean that it is the 'highest level' of personal Selfhood, or even the highest level of the impersonal universal Self.  But it is Spiritual and it is not lost as the 4 elemental material bodies are.  It is retained after the Ascension as the sum of all experience in materiality. The Causal Body is comprised of 12 concentric spheres of light/consciousness (7 major and 5 minor rays) which (vibrationally) surround the pure white light of the I AM Presence.  It is called the Causal Body because it is beyond the lower planes of karmic effects (in spiritual planes) and it endows the soul with talents and spiritual gifts created by the soul's loving use of freewill in prior incarnations.  The soul endows it... it endows the soul... and vice versa.  A multiplication is achieved.  The Causal Body is comprised of all the light energy which ever streamed through the soul and 4 lower bodies via the chakras and which was positively qualified and returned (lacking karmic weight) to the plane of spirit.  While the soul is incarnate, love is expressed through the 7 major and 5 minor chakras and rises back to spiritual planes to increase the magnitude of the causal body.  It is the personal attainment of the individual soul and (both before and after the Ascension) is an eternal adornment to draw upon and increase without limit.

So there is an ascension process (the path of resurrection of the lower- self) and (what David Wilcock speaks of) as the 'Ascension event'.  Many joys, ecstacies and sorrows attend that path.  So Ascension is more than the "activation" of the souls awareness of Christ and the I AM Presence.  That is the path of progressive awakening.  The 'Ascension event' is the permanent merger of the soul to Spirit.  During the soul's path to the Ascension, the Christ and I AM Presence must be "activated".  This of course means becoming conscious of those spiritual levels within.  The soul's conscious attention allows the flow of energy/consciousness from higher planes to lower. (ie... the descent of the Holy Spirit can dwell bodily in the temple [in the 4 lower bodies]).   In the peace and harmony of the soul, an arc of contact can be established with the Christ Self.  That spiritual flow is attenuated (for the soul) under the wise direction of the inner- Christ.  And of course the Christ / I AM Presence is a present Self, it is just that we have to go through a process of cycling through time and space in order to consciously realise/externalise that higher- Self in the soul and 4 lower bodies.  How much time and space is needed, is determined by the soul's willingness to accept the inner- Christ and by "working the works of Him ( I AM) who sent me"... as Jesus said.  He also said.... "the Father (I AM) works hitherto (here in matter) and I work".  And.... "He who sees me, sees not me, but He (I AM) who sent me".  Jesus is/was a Christ realised master and was referring to the fact that Christ is one with the Father (I AM) and that that great- Self acts in the material planes.... now.  The higher- Self is not aloof (even though it can appear so) and would fulfill IT's Will in us.  The Son obeys the Father and if the soul will be guided by Christ then all can unite in the Ascension of the soul back to the I AM Presence in Spirit. 

montalk wrote:

But according to Ra, graduating to 4D STO, even though it means you will have an active and open communication line with your Higher Self, does not mean you become that sixth density Higher Self. At 4D, the I AM presence doesn't form your center of gravity, but is more something still further up the spiritual evolutionary ladder that you gain a new kinship with. However, what is activated in the 4D STO state is the heart, and thus the Christ consciousness, which is all about love, understanding, and redeeming those less fortunate (as in 3rd density beings). Therefore I had to put the white-light / christos as the new thing in fourth density. The STO ascension that Ra talks about is basically the activation of Christ consciousness, with the addition of forging more permanent conscious communion with the Higher Self.

Have to add that 4D STO and 6D STO have a very close kinship, the latter having a more oracular or advisory function to the first. The lesser 6D STO is the "personal channel" (according to Cass terminology) a.k.a. the Higher Self, while the higher 6D STO is the "group channel" a.k.a. "sixth density social memory complex" of which the Ra and the Cassiopaeans claim to be. All that isn't stated outright in the Cass and Ra material, but it's apparent in reading between the lines and consulting other sources like Seth Speaks or Allies of Humanity where this difference between lower and higher STO entities demonstrates itself.

If they're claiming that their "higher 6th density" level is the loss of individuality or that it is some kind of inevitable merger of individual self- realisation then that isn't true.  Even 7th density at the level of I AM there is individualiy.

I further discussed "Ra's" teaching on the 7 bodies/densities on page 14 of the "magnetics and ascension" thread... post #196. As i stated there, i found his descriptions of the 7 'bodies' to be vague and jumbled (the word "incomplete" doesn't describe the deficiencies) that is, in light of the clarity which has been given in the past.  In the "Ra" scheme, the mental body is not mentioned or described.  The Christ did not get a mention or even a description... nor the Causal body which was not mentioned or described by anything that could distinguish it from others.   

But i see you have placed the Christos, the mental body and the Causal Body in "Ra's" chart.  How might the Ra scheme/chart look if you left out your own inclusions and just presented "Ra's" scheme the way he describes the densities/bodies?   Also the "Ra" descriptions of the chakras appeared to have beeen invented on the spot.  The number of petals and the colors of particular chakras were completely innacurate. 

montalk wrote:

Poffo wrote:

Ra and other "Confederation" sources mention both inner and outer planes for 3rd density, and I believe this goes for all densities.  The inner planes relate to the time/space experience while the outer relates to space/time.  Think of the inner planes (time/space) as being veiled from regular vision like the back side of the body while the outer planes (space/time) are visible as is the front side.

Thanks for your post, it cleared a lot of things up for me. And it got me thinking about the space/time vs time/space and inner planes connection, which goes a long way toward solving that conundrum of how 4D relates to the astral planes.

What poffo is saying is true.  Without the "space/time" / "time/space" terminology (for inner/outer) he is stating the facts as they've been taught for centuries.  That there are inner planes of reality.  When you're in 3d (incarnate in the 4 lower bodies like we are) then there are also inner planes. (astral, mental, etheric + spiritual levels).  Beyond 3d are the astral planes, which if you've lost your 3d physical body, the astral body is "now" your lowest material body... in which case you still have inner planes  (mental, etheric + spiritual levels).  And so on if you lose the astral body and awake to the mental body as your lowest material body then you still have inner planes (etheric + spiritual planes).  The inner planes are always veiled from regular vision unless they are awakened to from within.  How is this information solving the relationship between 4d and the astral plane?

Last edited by nexus (2008-02-14 06:40:02)

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#43 2008-02-13 17:35:06

nexus
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From: Australia
Registered: 2007-04-07
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Re: David Wilcock

montalk wrote:

The point is that if these errors are real and persistent, then there is no point to further discussion. But alright, let's discuss anyway and see what comes of it.

nexus wrote:

I argued that losing the physical body at death (which is the only way a 3d person leaves 3d)) and realising that a subtle body is the lowest one posseses, is not of itself... 1) a "graduation" or 2) a "harvest" or 3) the "ascension" or 4) "transcendence".

montalk wrote:

That's right. Leaving your physical body behind and wandering around in the astral body is not the same thing as 4D graduation, otherwise you would be graduating every night in deep sleep, or after death as you pointed out. The apparent contradiction is that the astral body is said to be the green-ray body, and green-ray is associated with 4D, therefore if graduation to 4D involves inhabiting a 4D body, how is that any different from inhabiting the astral body after death or in sleep?

As Poffo was contemplating, there is a relation between the astral and 4D, without the two being completely identical in all cases. Well, it's like the chakras. We have all of them, but does that mean we are enlightened psychic super beings just because we have all seven? No, it requires total activation and balancing of all chakras to achieve that. There is also a qualitative factor. Ra said we have all bodies "in potentiation" meaning that a plant has the same number (seven) of bodies "in potentiation" as does a higher density being. The only way they can be of different densities, then, is if beings of different densities have different bodies in activation. So in sleep or after death, even if we are no longer actively in the physical, which of our seven bodies are then in activation versus potentiation is still different from the case of a 4D native. Remember that even animals have astral bodies, and they are neither 3rd density nor 4th density, and that plants have ether (indigo-ray) bodies even though they are not sixth density.

A plant is not a spiritual being and has no spiritual bodies/densities in potentiation.  It has only material bodies not spiritual.  It is an expression of elemental consciousness which means it is comprised of the elements of each plane... physical, astral, mental and etheric.   So, don't you mean "plants have an etheric body and they're not 6th density?" Which would be obvious given 6d in the "Ra" scheme is a non-physical?... ie. spiritual level? 

Animals live in physical bodies like us and have astral and mental bodies too (and etheric? ... not sure).  But there are no spiritual levels (Christ, Causal, Buddhic).  Animals and plants should be placed in ("Ra's) 3rd density with only the 4 lower bodies possible to access.  I see it like this.  Elemental beings (like plants and animals) don't have an individual soul with numinous (spiritual levels) like humans.  They have a"group soul" which means they share soul energy with others of the same evolutionary species.  These "groups" eventually evolve to recieve the bestowal of individuality in human form.  (not every human on earth has been through this process on earth, some having incarnated here after 'falling' from etheric and spiritual heights of consciousness.) My point being that the densities relate less to what kind of consciousness inhabits particular forms (ie. what level of evolution) but of what the form is constructed. Is it physical? If so, then regardless of the evolution of consciousness in form (plant, animal, human) they are all at the very first density.... physical... 3d if you must but "3d" (3 dimensional) does not denote 3rd density.... it denotes "physical", describe that how you will.  It being the lowest (densest) density it makes more sense to me to name it first density.  Beyond that, depending on which evolutionary being we're describing (plant, animal, human) will determine how many higher levels/densities the being can potentially realise (while in that particular evolutionary status that is.)  For plants and animals there can only be up to 4 densities (physical, astral, mental, etheric) because they are elemental beings and the "elements" are 4 in number.  And for (spiritually endowed)  humans up to 7 levels/densities can be realised.  That is 4 material elements and 3 spiritual levels. 

Obviously if we lose the physical body at death and awaken in the astral plane then we are a 6 dimentional being at 2nd density.  If at death we awaken in the mental plane then we are a 5 dimentional being at 3rd density (having lost the physical and astral bodies).  If we awaken after death in the etheric plane we are a 4 dimentional being in 4th density (having lost the physical, astral and mental bodies) The soul's higher etheric body is a brilliant receptacle for the expression of the Christ consciousness, as are all the 4 lower bodies in their own way.  And no loss is experienced with the loss of each lower body as long as the soul transcends consciousness.  When sufficient measure of Christ- consciousness descends into the etheric body the soul ascends through that inner- Christ to fully merge with the I AM Presence.  That is the "Ascension event".  So Christ is 5th density.... The spheres of light/ consciousness surrounding the I AM Presence is the causal body ie. 6th density, and the I AM Presence is 7th density.  Each body 'lost' reduces the number of dimensions the soul occupies.  Each lower material body lost / transcended (physical, astral, mental) returns to the universal elements from which they came.   

montalk[quote=nexus wrote:

Similarly, for "Ra" to use the "numbers" to suggest an ascending series of "negative" graduations/ascensions/transcendences is no justification because there is no Ascension of consciousness or transcendence of consciousness in the path of STS. (even if he explains it.)

montalk wrote:

Then what do you call it when someone of the STS path acquires so much occult power, knowledge of manipulation, and experience in conquest that remaining a limited third density human serves no further purpose? What about those non-human, beyond-time, technologically sophisticated, telepathic, cunning dark entities that are best described as 4D STS? How did they get there? If they are just lower astral beings, how is it that they easily become fully physical, have underground bases here in America, have ships and physical instruments? They can access the astral plane but don't seem to not be limited to it.

They're in the lower astral.  They're descending. They're confined to the physical and astral universes :

"Woe to the inhabitants of the earth- (physical plane)
"and of the sea- (astral plane)
"For the devil- (the false hierarchy of fallen angels)
"Is come down unto you- (is incarnate on earth and in astral planes)
"having great wrath- (were cast out of etheric plane and are filled with revenge)
"For he knows that he hath but a short time- (before the final judgement)

These fallen beings have great psychic powers and fell with a great knowledge of the 'matrix', the material universe.  The laws of nature (the 'arts' and scientific principles) were deeply understood.  Their souls in the lower astral are the ones either in between incarnations or those not permitted to incarnate in the normal way having been banished from the portal of birth.  Maybe that's why they seek proxies by takeover of incarnate souls (incarnate members of the false hierarchy) or anyone of a suitably low vibration in positions of power. And some can navigate both physical and astral realms in their craft.  Time is running out and is "very short" now.

montalk wrote:

nexus wrote:

The astral plane is not a nonphysical sub-octave of third density any more than the mental plane is a non-astral sub-octave of the astral plane .... or any more than the etheric plane is a non-mental sub-octave of the mental plane.  [It is those semantics which allow "Ra" to claim an indefinable (in terms of the 4 planes of matter) "4th density"].

montalk wrote:

Good point, I agree with you. So I'll revise and go with something closer to what Poffo was suggesting, that within the inner planes there are various levels, and of those levels there are some that are more accessible to us as 3D humans because they correspond to our vibratory level and development. Meanwhile 4D STS can access the lower parts of the inner planes, while 4D STO can access the higher parts of these inner planes. But those are just the 4D STS, 3D STS, and 4D STO  time/space realms, whereas there are also space/time realms for those. The 3D STS space/time realm being what we are in right now, 4D STO space/time realm being, for instance that higher earth that awaits 4D STO graduates. See:

Ra material wrote:

Ra: I am Ra. Entities inhabit the various planes due to their
vibration/nature. The astral plane varies from thought-forms in the lower
extremities to enlightened beings who become dedicated to teach/learning
in the higher astral planes.

Ra material wrote:

In the devachanic planes, as you call them, are those whose vibrations are
even more close to the primal distortions of love/light.

So now I'll make my argument. Everything taken together, a distinction has to be made between the space/time versus time/space aspect of 4D, whether it is negative or positive 4D, whether it involves the lower or higher astral planes,  whether the green-ray body is just in potential or whether it is fully active, and whether the green-ray body is one's center of gravity. It seems to me that a 3D person in his astral state either doesn't have the astral body fully activated, or else does not have the green-ray as his center of gravity because his thoughts and perspectives are still very much mired in 3D, whereas a native to 4D not only has the green-ray body activated and forming the center of gravity, but has access to the 4D time/space (higher astral) and 4D space/time realms. The 3D being can only access the 3D time/space realm even though it is the astral realm, just not the higher portion of it. So with that, there is full justification for the Harvest to 4D STO, because 3D astral state is not the same.

I'm taking up this post right here today after writing the last one. 

Depending on their state of consciousness, 3d beings have now got access to any and all of the 7 planes because the Christ Consciousness can descend into any and all 4 material planes at will.... wherever the soul is.  To illustrate by extremes.... If a soul is in 3d physical (incarnate in all 4 material planes) and is one with Christ and on the verge of the Ascension then it will rise into the highest etheric plane at death.  At the other extreme, if a soul has a very gross FRV with no Christ consciousness then most likely that soul will gravitate to one the lower astral planes but maybe not the worst.  There is such a wide variety of states of consciousness on earth.  Somes souls are higher in the Christ consciousness than others.  What will matter as far as harvest goes is that at death (which is the only portal out of the physical plane for us) we either will or will not have fulfilled the requirements for Ascension.  ie. 51% of karma balanced and the life plan fulfilled will qualify the soul to remain in the etheric plane with no further karmic compulsion to re-incarnate.  From there the remaining karmic energies can be transmuted before the Ascension of the soul into the light of the I AM Presence.  All other souls will re- incarnate on the physical earth.  There will be no "reload" into the astral or anywhere else. The 4 planes of matter will still be here just like they always were albeit each of them will be gently rising in vibration because of the rising consciousness of the souls who incarnate in the material planes and the absence of the illuminati. 

For example, if i re-incarnate on earth i can expect to find far better influences on earth because the darkest human beings will be gone.  There will be many more people growing into Christ - consciousness taking positions of power with the STO ethic.  That will tranform all worthwhile institutions and put an end to unworthy parasitic institutions.  It will be the end of "big" government and "big" bussiness as usual.  Absolutely everything will be transformed to reflect who we are and what we and our children need to thrive spiritually and materially.  It will take co-operation and a willingness to learn by everyone.  That transformation of the world will be rapid by past standards but it's not going to be some "flip" or "reload" scenario a few years from now.  Everyone's mother- in- law will still be in their lives. 

All 4 material bodies are presently active to the extent that they serve the soul incarnate in the physical body.  By "activated" do you mean after death when a particular body becomes the external suit?  Or activated by the quickening of the Christ Spirit?  If you mean death then.... when a subtle body becomes a fully external 'suit' the laws applicable to that level are quickly re-familiarised and the soul is anchored at that level and consciously active in that plane.  Depending on personal FRV and that plane could be astral, mental or etheric.  Regardless of which one it is there is no particular color ray dominating.  The soul in that body still has all chakras and none will be any more or less activated than before death.  Whichever plane the soul gravitates to after death there are further delineations of that plane so that depending on FRV, the soul will have a vibrational affinity with a particular level of that plane.  Thus lower and higher levels exist in the astral plane, mental plane and etheric plane.  The higher levels of each plane are obviously lighter and subtler than the lower.  The grossest demonic forces are confined to the lower astral and there are some quite unsavoury entities in the lower mental.  Etheric realms are free of those grossest forces. 

montalk wrote:

nexus wrote:

Which one could it be where we become "fully impersonal and timeless?"  Actually even at the level of the I AM Presence (Buddha) we are still personal.  This is a spiritual level of being at the height of our personal Selfhood.  How does "Ra's" "5th density" fit in with "timeless impersonality?"   Which spiritual level could it be describing?.... And how does "5th density" relate to impersonality by virtue of the dissolution of the astral body, which happens to every soul who transcends the astral plane after death..  Is "5th density" (twice removed from 3d) a subtle material plane or spiritual?  Which one?

montalk wrote:

You're more familiar with that system than I am, but if the human being is divided into physical, etheric, astral, and mind, then at fifth density only the mind remains. It remains without the passions imprinted in the astral body, nor the biases stamped into the etheric body, nor of course the biological drives of the physical. So by impersonal, I meant without the mortal 3D personality. There is still individualized consciousness.

The chart i posted describes the mental body one of the subtle material bodies.  It is a vessel made from mental elemental energy.  It will eventually be transcended like all of the 4 lower bodies because they're all vessels made from elemental energy.  And the etheric body is higher than the mental body.  The biases of the mental body are manifold. The mental body in most human beings is the conglomerate carnal mind.  Only the indwelling of Christ can cleanse it in order to more fully enter it.

montalk wrote:

nexus wrote:

I may as well say outright that what i was hinting at is that if "Ra's" 4th density" is not among those (4 basic material planes) then "Ra's" 4th density' does not exist.  So i was speculating about what else "Ra" might be referring to.  That is why i asked about the astral.  Not because i insist that that is what "Ra" is referring to, but simply because the astral plane is the next level/ density from earth.  And frankly, there is nowhere else to go for an incorrigible, dedicated STSelfer but to the lower astral plane after death.

Now I'm pretty sure that is not the case, and that the dedicated STS initiate does have some place to go other than the lower astral plane. This is not something spelled out in the Ra Material, but it goes back to the space/time versus time/space concept. If this lower astral plane is negative time/space, then the other place where an STS initiate goes upon graduation is negative space/time. That makes perfect sense even in context of the Cassiopaean material where 4D is said to be the state of variable physicality, meaning volitional mobility between the physical or etheric states, mobility between lower astral planes or 4D negative space/time and everything in between. For posterity, here is Ra's description of 4D, which I take to be 4D positive space/time:

Questioner: Thank you. Is it possible for you to give a short description of
the conditions in the fourth density?

Ra: I am Ra. We ask you to consider as we speak that there are not words
for positively describing fourth density. We can only explain what is not
and approximate what is. Beyond fourth density our ability grows more
limited until we become without words.

That which fourth density is not: it is not of words, unless chosen. It is not
of heavy chemical vehicles for body complex activities. It is not of
disharmony within self. It is not of disharmony within peoples. It is not
within limits of possibility to cause disharmony in any way.
Approximations of positive statements: it is a plane of type of bipedal
vehicle which is much denser and more full of life; it is a plane wherein one
is aware of the thought of other-selves; it is a plane wherein one is aware of
vibrations of other-selves; it is a plane of compassion and understanding of
the sorrows of third density; it is a plane striving towards wisdom or light; it
is a plane wherein individual differences are pronounced although
automatically harmonized by group consensus.

montalk wrote:

Just a sidenote concerning dreams: what we visit in dreams -- if not our own subconscious projections -- would be the parts of the astral plane that correspond to our 3D vibratory level. Whereas 4D, while similar to dreams in its fluidity, is therefore not the same thing because 4D encompasses levels of the inner planes and densities of spacetime that we cannot access ourselves.

In dreams, our soul can go beyond the astral planes into mental and etheric realms.  These 4 material planes are our playground.

Last edited by nexus (2008-02-14 03:08:03)

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#44 2008-02-14 03:23:51

google
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Registered: 2005-12-01
Website

Re: David Wilcock

titmouse_ wrote:

I have a question: Since there are many people who express gnosis in their own fashion, based on their own spiritual gifts--how would intelligence be attributed to spiritual enlightenment? Can someone be ascending on their own individual path without understanding all the terminology and knowledge of the structure, or is it necessary for intellect to play a role?  I feel that gnosis is separate from the ability to verbalize it with cogent language skills.

It's that age old question,

"Who knows more about physics, Albert Einstein or Michael Jordan ?".

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#45 2008-02-14 05:12:25

Antaeus
Member
Registered: 2007-07-06

Re: David Wilcock

montalk wrote:

Okay, so some people want to stop and smell the roses, others want to take the path out of here. How about smelling the roses as you walk out of here? What about the gardenias and cherry blossoms ahead? You can enjoy the journey as you traverse it! Certainly more enjoyable than standing still or scrambling for the exit. Life is growth, and by moving forward and upward can you continue growing after you have exhausted your current stage. By being content standing still, you deny yourself the next stage, and in scrambling forward you deny yourself the current stage. Walk, don't run, to the nearest exit, and have fun on the way! If you catch fire, stop, drop, and roll with the changes, then dust yourself off and keep going. Corny but true.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The above was worthy of an encore.


Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
----------------------------------------------------------
You have to believe in the impossible in order to become.

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