You overlooked a host of questions and points i made in my last post to focus only on your own version of the astral plane as distinct from "Ra's" version of "4th density". To choose only to discuss the errors you percieve in my last post and to concede only errors of style on behalf of the "Ra" material is a defensive posture. I will take the time again to re-iterate (in summary) some of the points and questions from my last post but if you will only respond to my errors, real and/or imagined, what's the point of the discussion.
The point is that if these errors are real and persistent, then there is no point to further discussion. But alright, let's discuss anyway and see what comes of it.
I argued that losing the physical body at death (which is the only way a 3d person leaves 3d)) and realising that a subtle body is the lowest one posseses, is not of itself... 1) a "graduation" or 2) a "harvest" or 3) the "ascension" or 4) "transcendence".
That's right. Leaving your physical body behind and wandering around in the astral body is not the same thing as 4D graduation, otherwise you would be graduating every night in deep sleep, or after death as you pointed out. The apparent contradiction is that the astral body is said to be the green-ray body, and green-ray is associated with 4D, therefore if graduation to 4D involves inhabiting a 4D body, how is that any different from inhabiting the astral body after death or in sleep?
As Poffo was contemplating, there is a relation between the astral and 4D, without the two being completely identical in all cases. Well, it's like the chakras. We have all of them, but does that mean we are enlightened psychic super beings just because we have all seven? No, it requires total activation and balancing of all chakras to achieve that. There is also a qualitative factor. Ra said we have all bodies "in potentiation" meaning that a plant has the same number (seven) of bodies "in potentiation" as does a higher density being. The only way they can be of different densities, then, is if beings of different densities have different bodies in activation. So in sleep or after death, even if we are no longer actively in the physical, which of our seven bodies are then in activation versus potentiation is still different from the case of a 4D native. Remember that even animals have astral bodies, and they are neither 3rd density nor 4th density, and that plants have ether (indigo-ray) bodies even though they are not sixth density.
As well as the descriptive deficiencies i mentioned earlier, (in relation to ascension/harvest) i make the point that "Ra's" use of well known terms in an opposite fashion (when speaking of the STS path) is curious also in the context of those other 'gems' i mentioned earlier... (ie... we are described as "distortions".... attacks by demonic STS entities are "greetings"...... freewill is the "first law of confusion"...) If i exchanged the words "black" for "white" and "night" for "day" and "love" for "hate" (and gave my justifications and used them in my posts) then at some level it would twist everything else you read even if you understood what i really meant. Not because the words and descriptions are merely different but because they are opposite.
The meaning of these terms were clear. "Distortion" means a perturbation away from an undifferentiated absolute state of unity. "Greeting" means a contact event intended to depolarize. "First law of confusion" has to do with having to make up your own mind. You can exchange "black" for "white" if you define black as "the color of snow" and white as "the color of coal." In german "gift" means poison while in english "gift" means a present, it is the definition that counts and not the word. This is semantics again. Although, yes, better terms could have been used for those same definitions. That's why I like the Cassiopaean material more than the Ra Material when it comes to handling the STS subject; it calls an attack an attack.
Similarly, for "Ra" to use the "numbers" to suggest an ascending series of "negative" graduations/ascensions/transcendences is no justification because there is no Ascension of consciousness or transcendence of consciousness in the path of STS. (even if he explains it.)
Then what do you call it when someone of the STS path acquires so much occult power, knowledge of manipulation, and experience in conquest that remaining a limited third density human serves no further purpose? What about those non-human, beyond-time, technologically sophisticated, telepathic, cunning dark entities that are best described as 4D STS? How did they get there? If they are just lower astral beings, how is it that they easily become fully physical, have underground bases here in America, have ships and physical instruments? They can access the astral plane but don't seem to not be limited to it.
The astral plane is not a nonphysical sub-octave of third density any more than the mental plane is a non-astral sub-octave of the astral plane .... or any more than the etheric plane is a non-mental sub-octave of the mental plane. [It is those semantics which allow "Ra" to claim an indefinable (in terms of the 4 planes of matter) "4th density"].
Good point, I agree with you. So I'll revise and go with something closer to what Poffo was suggesting, that within the inner planes there are various levels, and of those levels there are some that are more accessible to us as 3D humans because they correspond to our vibratory level and development. Meanwhile 4D STS can access the lower parts of the inner planes, while 4D STO can access the higher parts of these inner planes. But those are just the 4D STS, 3D STS, and 4D STO time/space realms, whereas there are also space/time realms for those. The 3D STS space/time realm being what we are in right now, 4D STO space/time realm being, for instance that higher earth that awaits 4D STO graduates. See:
Ra material wrote:
Ra: I am Ra. Entities inhabit the various planes due to their
vibration/nature. The astral plane varies from thought-forms in the lower
extremities to enlightened beings who become dedicated to teach/learning
in the higher astral planes.
In the devachanic planes, as you call them, are those whose vibrations are
even more close to the primal distortions of love/light.
So now I'll make my argument. Everything taken together, a distinction has to be made between the space/time versus time/space aspect of 4D, whether it is negative or positive 4D, whether it involves the lower or higher astral planes, whether the green-ray body is just in potential or whether it is fully active, and whether the green-ray body is one's center of gravity. It seems to me that a 3D person in his astral state either doesn't have the astral body fully activated, or else does not have the green-ray as his center of gravity because his thoughts and perspectives are still very much mired in 3D, whereas a native to 4D not only has the green-ray body activated and forming the center of gravity, but has access to the 4D time/space (higher astral) and 4D space/time realms. The 3D being can only access the 3D time/space realm even though it is the astral realm, just not the higher portion of it. So with that, there is full justification for the Harvest to 4D STO, because 3D astral state is not the same.
Which one could it be where we become "fully impersonal and timeless?" Actually even at the level of the I AM Presence (Buddha) we are still personal. This is a spiritual level of being at the height of our personal Selfhood. How does "Ra's" "5th density" fit in with "timeless impersonality?" Which spiritual level could it be describing?.... And how does "5th density" relate to impersonality by virtue of the dissolution of the astral body, which happens to every soul who transcends the astral plane after death.. Is "5th density" (twice removed from 3d) a subtle material plane or spiritual? Which one?
You're more familiar with that system than I am, but if the human being is divided into physical, etheric, astral, and mind, then at fifth density only the mind remains. It remains without the passions imprinted in the astral body, nor the biases stamped into the etheric body, nor of course the biological drives of the physical. So by impersonal, I meant without the mortal 3D personality. There is still individualized consciousness.
I may as well say outright that what i was hinting at is that if "Ra's" 4th density" is not among those (4 basic material planes) then "Ra's" 4th density' does not exist. So i was speculating about what else "Ra" might be referring to. That is why i asked about the astral. Not because i insist that that is what "Ra" is referring to, but simply because the astral plane is the next level/ density from earth. And frankly, there is nowhere else to go for an incorrigible, dedicated STSelfer but to the lower astral plane after death.
Now I'm pretty sure that is not the case, and that the dedicated STS initiate does have some place to go other than the lower astral plane. This is not something spelled out in the Ra Material, but it goes back to the space/time versus time/space concept. If this lower astral plane is negative time/space, then the other place where an STS initiate goes upon graduation is negative space/time. That makes perfect sense even in context of the Cassiopaean material where 4D is said to be the state of variable physicality, meaning volitional mobility between the physical or etheric states, mobility between lower astral planes or 4D negative space/time and everything in between. For posterity, here is Ra's description of 4D, which I take to be 4D positive space/time:
Questioner: Thank you. Is it possible for you to give a short description of
the conditions in the fourth density?
Ra: I am Ra. We ask you to consider as we speak that there are not words
for positively describing fourth density. We can only explain what is not
and approximate what is. Beyond fourth density our ability grows more
limited until we become without words.
That which fourth density is not: it is not of words, unless chosen. It is not
of heavy chemical vehicles for body complex activities. It is not of
disharmony within self. It is not of disharmony within peoples. It is not
within limits of possibility to cause disharmony in any way.
Approximations of positive statements: it is a plane of type of bipedal
vehicle which is much denser and more full of life; it is a plane wherein one
is aware of the thought of other-selves; it is a plane wherein one is aware of
vibrations of other-selves; it is a plane of compassion and understanding of
the sorrows of third density; it is a plane striving towards wisdom or light; it
is a plane wherein individual differences are pronounced although
automatically harmonized by group consensus.
Just a sidenote concerning dreams: what we visit in dreams -- if not our own subconscious projections -- would be the parts of the astral plane that correspond to our 3D vibratory level. Whereas 4D, while similar to dreams in its fluidity, is therefore not the same thing because 4D encompasses levels of the inner planes and densities of spacetime that we cannot access ourselves.
Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.