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#16 2008-02-09 22:43:22

nexus
fool
From: Australia
Registered: 2007-04-07
Website

Re: David Wilcock

google wrote:

Hi nexus.

There is too many ideas presented for me to contemplate right now.

Is it possible that when the soul is left with no passion to cause any effect on our universe, good or evil,  that the God force is used elsewhere, because it can ? 
I could understand that kind of death or judgment. But the soul is just the container, not the Fluid. The Universe would still be closed system, with zero gain, in terms of God force in it.

Sort of like 3D reincarnation on a grander scale.

While a soul maintains an identity, it is never left with no passion to effect the universe.  It is either infused with the passion of the inner- Christ or (at some point after all efforts by the Christ are spurned) it is left to it's own passions.  The lower passions become a God forsaken round of pleasure seeking and energy vampirism until the final judgement.  The God force of the higher- Self is active at the spiritual level but the lost soul will not allow that action at the soul level.  By freewill the soul has denied the higher- Self an open door into the material planes.

The 4 lower bodies are the containers for the soul's experience in all planes of matter, so the soul is more than a container.  The 4 lower bodies are comprised of elemental energy...physical, astral, mental, etheric.  But the 'human' soul is a conscious portion of the spiritual- Self.... conscious of itself and capable, by the inflow of spirit, (the 'fluid') of being conscious of the fullness of spiritual Being.  While a soul can be recycled, it is a huge loss to the soul itself, obviously, and to the Higher- Self who loves the soul and desires union.  But there can be no conscious union where there is no vibrational harmony.

When speaking of "gain" there are 2 points to make.  Firstly that, obviously the spirit/ matter universe is not a closed system.  The chakra system is the open door for the flow of spiritual energy into matter.  This divine purpose is fulfilled by incarnate souls (like ourselves) and by spiritual beings who can (and do) enter any or all of the 4 material planes.  Any spiritual energy (from the I AM Presence) which a soul harmoniously qualifies (through love), first blesses the material planes, then rises back to the spiritual planes multiplied. This love energy is a net increase to the causal body and the individual attainment of the soul.  It is the soul's "treasure laid up in heaven" and is further accessable to the soul.  That is how a soul can be inspired in subsequent incarnations with spiritual gifts.  They are gifts developed by the soul herself and 'stored' in the causal body. ( the "storehouse of the Lord")  The soul inherits these gifts to further develop her field of service in each incarnation.  That is how God (in communion with the soul) becomes MORE in all planes.

INHERIT = IN  HERE  IT  -----------  IN HER IT

Secondly, the spiritual Adepts teach that GOD is constantly becoming MORE as are all beings who choose LIFE.  That includes ourselves and all the great spiritual Adepts and Cosmic Beings of greater personal attainment.  So, if we are fulfilling our reason for being we are constantly becoming more in a universe that is constantly becoming more.  The gift of soul consciousness is an awesome opportunity.

"His Lord- (I AM) said unto him- (the soul)
Well done thou good and faithful servant- (for serving the Christ in All- STO)
Thou hast been faithful over a few things- (ie. the soul and the flow of energy through the 4 lower bodies)
I will make thee ruler over many things- (I will permanently fuse thy soul to ME in the ascension)
Enter thou into the joy of the lord- (enter the joy of Oneness and the eternal expansion of consciousness)

Last edited by nexus (2008-02-09 22:44:40)

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#17 2008-02-10 05:45:44

titmouse_
Kosmic MountainGoat
From: Shores of Lake Titikaka
Registered: 2006-05-26

Re: David Wilcock

I appreciate that google can ask the questions that I am not yet able to ask for myself. I respect your willingness to share so freely your time and wisdom where I can read it.

I have a question: Since there are many people who express gnosis in their own fashion, based on their own spiritual gifts--how would intelligence be attributed to spiritual enlightenment? Can someone be ascending on their own individual path without understanding all the terminology and knowledge of the structure, or is it necessary for intellect to play a role?  I feel that gnosis is separate from the ability to verbalize it with cogent language skills. Do the 7 dimensional levels correlate to the 7 colors or the spectrum?

A few questions I'd appreciate if you could address for me--either here or in the hereafter(ND).

Last edited by titmouse_ (2008-02-10 05:50:53)


Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter


1+1=1

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#18 2008-02-10 11:43:22

EON
Member
Registered: 2007-10-09

Re: David Wilcock

hi!! I read the Ra material found it very interesting and it satisfies me on many questions that I have regarding the existence. But thats not something I wanted to write..I can't recall where I read this but on the forum there is a post which describes the symbology and its hebrew interpettation of each alphabet of English in the birds language. And I found that so interesting that I actually memorized the meaning and symbology behind each alphabet and every name and word that you hear in the outside world is to trigger that very concept that it carries with it.

The reason I write this over here is because I was going thru the name David Wilcock. Now, this person may exist or may not exist but whats more important is the name that gives him an identity exists which is DA VI D WIL COCK which is basically a concept for certain name. That name actually addresses to the WILL of the individual who is complete which is to say DA (represents the Cosmic Father) and VI (represents the Cosmic force and Mother) now D would again leave and impression of a father figure to look upon and Will is what our energy of intent that dwells in root or mulkat chakra and cock is what has to be awakened with the energy to manifest the spiral D.N.A. and now I  firmly believe that we are all living in a verbal prison seriously cuz every vibration of each alphabet has certain effects on our energy centers too. Like a strong sound of "TTHHOO' comes out of throat that respresents EGO of an individual. like the word "AUM" is universal slyable because that sound resonates with your pineal gland and your heart. the humming  sound is for the heart and the A (the rule of compass, by the rule which world takes shape) represents your pineal gland which is responsible for what we see and interact thru our senses. Infact, its the pineal gland that sets and assembles the reality that we encounter. Now, even the Da Vinci Code is nothing but a child of the cosmic conciousness of the Father the chirst conciousness and the cosmic mother here if we break the words once again we are left with Da Vi...... N(represents the revolution) Ci(stands for the child). So, breaking the Da vinci Code you get a child who is complete has conciousness without a father that is the state of the world our concoiusness is dead we are all taken and controlled like puppets all the time but the rebelious concoius has a conciousness cuz he looks at the world as an observer but not an absolute truth to all there is.

I came to conclusion that Ci stans for the children of the Cosmic Father and Mother because there are soo many syncs if i try to write you won't understand cuz anyone reading this is not in my shoes and it won't make sense to him. But when I do look at'em they resound like a symphony which opens up the gate but yeah if you agree to this concept may be it will start resounding and produce the same symphony that could be understood being in your own shoes.

But on a personal note I for the first time came to U.S port of entry Chicago ( CUBS). Now, and I would end up living in chicago. My awakening of spiritual life starts in chicago which ofcourse began with a sevior paranoia but not a threat to self believe and faith that made me stand strong to witness everything i wanted to. I was watching matrix for the very first time after I learnt to speak and understand the accent perfectly and my mother calls me up out of the blue. She calls me up when am watching matrix looking for answers high on Weed and my mom tells me she is sick and all that to move my mind from what I was paying attention to. Now, the streets that were used in the first movie are all from Chicago. And I use to drive a taxi and when he says come to the phone booth at lake and wells there is a phone booth there. But never mind, that was my personal research. Then yeah the whole movie concept showed me what is to come and indeed that is what we are headed for cuz its also on my friggin mat in an intelligent design a war between the Angels and Demons world. I mean my first ever novel when I didn't even care about reading was Angels and Demons by Dan Brown about particle accelator and anti-matter and all about CERN. But all I know is one thing I still haven't made it to where am headed but am really thank full to everyone on the forum and eveyrone in my life thru their deception and thru their kind words of wisdom and in every aspect they taught me things that I couldn't have learnt without'em.   I just realized one thing am just breaking the wall of fog around me by being too honest :-S


" Love is the understanding and unspoken bond between you and the creator "

"Loving is an art that is the state of creation"

..........Lyrically am suppose to SHINE.........
..........I am the ONE that makes you  BLIND........
..........And am that darkness that lets you SHINE.........

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#19 2008-02-10 17:24:40

nexus
fool
From: Australia
Registered: 2007-04-07
Website

Re: David Wilcock

titmouse_ wrote:

I appreciate that google can ask the questions that I am not yet able to ask for myself. I respect your willingness to share so freely your time and wisdom where I can read it.

I have a question: Since there are many people who express gnosis in their own fashion, based on their own spiritual gifts--how would intelligence be attributed to spiritual enlightenment?     

Can someone be ascending on their own individual path without understanding all the terminology and knowledge of the structure, or is it necessary for intellect to play a role?  I feel that gnosis is separate from the ability to verbalize it with cogent language skills. Do the 7 dimensional levels correlate to the 7 colors or the spectrum?

A few questions I'd appreciate if you could address for me--either here or in the hereafter(ND).

I guess the question is "what is intelligence"?

Here's one explanation. 

Each soul has, in the heart chakra, a three plumed spiritual flame at the centre.  It is the very essence of divine intelligence placed in the heart (at the etheric level) by the I AM Presence.  One plume is yellow (wisdom) one is pink (love) and one is blue (power).  These 3 are the primary colours out of which all other color (light rays) can be blended.  Picture a 'fleur de lis' when picturing this flame but each plume should be the same size as each other (and intertwined with the others).  The Christ flame of Love, Wisdom and Power should be balanced in it's manifestation in the heart.  That is, each plume should be the same size.  In most people one or two of the plumes will have been more developed than the others.  But, because the flame seeks balance, the most developed plume will reduce to the size of the others.  From this description we might be able to get some idea of our strengths and weaknesses if we meditate on the flame and observe our own interactions with life.

But if we never saw this flame or even conceptualised it in this way, it's not going to prevent our spiritual growth.  Likewise for quite a lot of metaphysical knowledge.  The lower intellect can be filled with 'knowledge' but without the engagement of the heart in our interactions with ourselves and others we can't get very far on the spiritual path.  The heart is loving, wise,  powerful.  It penetrates forms..... it sees essence..... it judges by vibration..... it leads the soul if the soul is willing to surrender and let go of brittleness, intellectual pride, vanity, egotism, hatred, fear, doubt .... it opens to allow true being, self expression.  None of us can be a carbon copy of someone else.  We must learn to love ourselves and (the growing realisation of) our own uniqueness.  We discover that in our own company and in the company of others.  That balance is important.  Getting aquainted with the intelligence of the heart is the discovery of that uniqueness because each soul in Christ has a unique facet of consciousness to contribute to the whole which no- one else has.

Do the 7 dimensional levels correlate to the 7 colors or the spectrum?

The 7 rays can express in every dimensional level.  The white light of christ- consciousness is refracted through the prism of the 7 chakras and shines through the 4 material planes... physical, astral, mental, etheric... because that light is expressed through the lenses of the 4 lower bodies.  In the spiritual planes that light is also differentiated into the spectrum in all planes except the highest level of undifferentiated being.  The thing about this concept and the concept of the 3 fold flame in the heart is that they represent reality and the soul knows it at subconscious levels.  The beauty of having some conscious familiarity with these concepts is that, apart from the benefit of resonance, they can help us to understand what is happening when the reality of it is experienced in a more than ordinary way.  That is, when the spiritual- Self decides, even for moments, to descend into the 4 lower bodies (to embrace the soul and shine) in a more than ordinary way.  Yogananda once said that we are like a 50 watt light globe and the Spirit is a million watts.  We couldn't take the fullness (of the descent of the christ spirit to dwell bodily in us) all at once so we have some house cleaning to do.  And even that cleansing (the transmutation of the 4 lower bodies) requires the (alchemical) action of the flow of spirit.  So much to discover.

Last edited by nexus (2008-02-10 17:41:17)

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#20 2008-02-10 22:21:07

montalk
forum-keeper-upper
Registered: 2004-03-25
Website

Re: David Wilcock

nexus wrote:

Unlike "Ra",,, Jesus and other messengers of the Spirit have given us a real choice between 2 paths and only one leads to ascension.  One path (STS) is comfortable, gentle underfoot, and slopes gently, almost imperceptibly downwards (in vibration).  Progressively severing the flow of the inner- Spirit, it leads to an increasing sense of separation, disintegration from the whole and eventual death.

Actually there is no contradiction between Ra and Jesus in this case. Both talk about two paths, one leading upward, the other downward. The problem is in the semantics of ascension. Your definition of ascension is restricted to transcending upwardly out of this mortal existence, whereas Ra was being more generic and meant simply transcending out of this existence, whether upward or downward. What both forms of graduation have in common is that they imply mastery over former challenges; the STO graduation involves sufficient mastery of spirit over the lower self, and STS path involves adequate mastery of the lower self over others.

So if the STS path is taken to its extreme, which Ra claims requires being at least 95% STS, then ascension from 3D STS to 4D STS becomes possible. But since 4D STS is really a type of higher dimensional sub-existence, aka the Abyss / Hell / Hades / Tartarus, it is not at all the same thing as what STO ascension leads toward. But within the STS path itself, yes, the 4D or 5D state is "higher", more sophisticated, more challenging, more refined. But relative to the STO path, it is even more spiritually deadened, atrophied, frozen than even the 3D state. That's why I say it's downward from 3D even though of a higher density.

And because the STS hierarchy is really a pyramid scheme, what occult credit is borrowed to acquire power over others, it piles up and eventually collapses in upon itself like a star collapsing into a black hole, resulting in permanent death of consciousness. This is opposite what the STO path results in, the complete spiritualization of consciousness. My reason for pointing this out is to show that the Ra Material cannot be used to rationalize a cavalier acceptance of psychopathy as a fun and easy way to ascend into the same positive realm that the more arduous STO path of initiation leads toward. The STS path lets you ascend alright, but ascend from the realm of mortal tyrants to the realm of demonic super-parasites. If only we called the STS transition "descension" and "assimilation" instead of ascension and graduation, that would avoid so much semantic confusion.

nexus wrote:

If all paths lead to "Rome" what is the point of freewill and choice.  They are rendered meaningless.

Even if there were only one destination, freewill still lets you choose among the different paths. You choose the quality of experience. Do you want the road of love, glory, and peace? Or the road of pain, misery, and hatred? So even if STS and STO paths lead to the same destination, the journeys differ, hence the possibility of choice.

The problem I have is not with what you say about the importance of Christ Consciousness and serving others, or the importance of taking the STO path of ascension, but in your claiming that the Ra Material is opposed to this, and that therefore David Wilcock is highly deceived. Instead, a more accurate understanding of the Ra cosmology reveals it to be an extension rather than contradiction.


Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

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#21 2008-02-11 05:42:03

google
Member
Registered: 2005-12-01
Website

Re: David Wilcock

nexus wrote:

While a soul maintains an identity, it is never left with no passion to effect the universe.  It is either infused with the passion of the inner- Christ or (at some point after all efforts by the Christ are spurned) it is left to it's own passions.  The lower passions become a God forsaken round of pleasure seeking and energy vampirism until the final judgement. 

Secondly, the spiritual Adepts teach that GOD is constantly becoming MORE as are all beings who choose LIFE.  That includes ourselves and all the great spiritual Adepts and Cosmic Beings of greater personal attainment.  So, if we are fulfilling our reason for being we are constantly becoming more in a universe that is constantly becoming more.

If "In the beginning was God",  what exists right now that is NOT God and what is it made out of if it is not God Himself ?

If God is and always was everything, how could He (The Universe) be becoming more ?

If God can be improved, was He perfect in the first place ?

Isn't time an artificial  construct anyway ?

How could God be becoming more when there can be no journey without the illusion of time ?

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#22 2008-02-11 06:31:48

google
Member
Registered: 2005-12-01
Website

Re: David Wilcock

titmouse_ wrote:

I have a question: Since there are many people who express gnosis in their own fashion, based on their own spiritual gifts--how would intelligence be attributed to spiritual enlightenment?

If you are asking me intelligence is to be enjoyed.



titmouse_ wrote:

Can someone be ascending on their own individual path without understanding all the terminology and knowledge of the structure, or is it necessary for intellect to play a role?

Respond to that still, small voice, is the best that I can figure.
If you you don't feel it, ask to feel it.
I can feel a warm light shining in me that is attempting to energize my polluted soul.


I had a thought tonight when I went for a walk.
I like walking at night in the winter.
The air is fresh and clean.   
I'm really learning to love snowy winters, all over again.

But anyway......


If  I have always existed and always will exist then this moment is all there is.
My only connection.
I don't believe in the judgment nexus is talking about, mainly because I don't understand it. As long as I'm loving life, why throw away the soul and what  is the hurry ?
And that puts a perspective on things.
Since infinity is my past and infinity is my future, my awareness of the God force is the only thing I possess and that will affect how I see the world.
The God force is all there is and everything in the universe lusts after it whether they know it or not.
The reason I like music or the reason you like carpentry shows we desire something more Devine. (archetypes ?). 

But this gets back to what I was saying about the loneliness of God.
There must have been a time when God realized that he was alone.

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#23 2008-02-11 07:08:41

titmouse_
Kosmic MountainGoat
From: Shores of Lake Titikaka
Registered: 2006-05-26

Re: David Wilcock

Nice winter images you've inspired.  I too, enjoy a wonderful walk in the snow fall at night. Hope to get up to the snow soon.

I was wanting to respond to your mention of the loneliness of God--I see a difference between loneliness and aloneness. It seems like aloneness is not a condition which is dominated by desire; whereas, loneliness seems to be a fearful, insecure, yearning for love. Love is God--as many have suggested. In aloneness one can be energized with love; in loneliness one is slowly drained of energy.  Do you see this difference I see?


Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter


1+1=1

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#24 2008-02-11 09:46:23

nexus
fool
From: Australia
Registered: 2007-04-07
Website

Re: David Wilcock

montalk wrote:

nexus wrote:

Unlike "Ra",,, Jesus and other messengers of the Spirit have given us a real choice between 2 paths and only one leads to ascension.  One path (STS) is comfortable, gentle underfoot, and slopes gently, almost imperceptibly downwards (in vibration).  Progressively severing the flow of the inner- Spirit, it leads to an increasing sense of separation, disintegration from the whole and eventual death.

Actually there is no contradiction between Ra and Jesus in this case. Both talk about two paths, one leading upward, the other downward. The problem is in the semantics of ascension. Your definition of ascension is restricted to transcending upwardly out of this mortal existence, whereas Ra was being more generic and meant simply transcending out of this existence, whether upward or downward. What both forms of graduation have in common is that they imply mastery over former challenges; the STO graduation involves sufficient mastery of spirit over the lower self, and STS path involves adequate mastery of the lower self over others.

I don't doubt that that is what "Ra" means and your last post in reply to me made that clearer than Don Elkins did.  I will quote him later and ask for your perception of what he means on another question.  But in the above quote i wrote "unlike Ra" for a good reason which relates to the real opportunity at hand rather than the false choice "Ra" presents.  I will explain.  Yes "Ra" presents a choice between STS and STO as Jesus did.  And yes STO leads upward and STS leads downward.  But "Ra" mis-characterises the Ascension in several ways.  Firstly, "Ra" denies the very spiritual levels of being that will give effect to the real Ascension which is the fusion of the soul to the I AM Presence. (I will show that denial a bit later). That real Ascension is what this "harvest" is all about for souls devoted to the inner- light in self and in Service To Others..... nothing else...... except also the final judgement for a small percentage of STSelf entities on earth and in the astral plane.  Other than that, everyone else will re- incarnate on earth again.  So, "Ra" is mis-characterising the terms "ascension"/"harvest" for both STO and STS.  He further obscures the truth regarding Ascension by distorting the common meaning of words associated with well known spiritual concepts.  The word "ascension" and the associated word "transcendence" do not naturally relate to the downward path of STS and have never been used in those terms.  I don't see that as a matter of semantics when opposite definitions are given for spiritual terms.  Even though "Ra" explains his terms, those descriptions are one hundred and eighty degrees from their common use in spiritual dispensations where you won't find them used in relation to the left handed path of STS.  [I believe that is as deliberate as calling us "distortions" and naming demonic attacks as "greetings" and naming freewill as "the first law of confusion" and other such quaintness. They are inappropriate and the metaphysical justifications given for the use of such terms are deficient  and can be better explained by the examination of "Ra's" motive.]. 

So even in relation to the path of STO, "Ra" uses the words "ascension"/"harvest" to describe something that is a far lesser manifestation than real "Ascension".... as if it was actually the fulfillment of this long awaited dispensation.   A "graduation" to a positively polarised 4th density planet (even if it was going to happen) is not the ascension.  Presumably the 4th density planet is not the earth as we know it but is just beyond earth.  In fact the astral plane is the next density to earth, could it be that?  There are upper levels of the astral plane that are not inhabited by the grossest STS entities but souls inhabiting those realms are still living an illusion. Perhaps that is what "Ra" is saying.  Not that that makes it true.

But even worse than that pale representation of "harvest/ascension", "Ra" gives a teaching that virtually guarantees (if we believe it) that we cannot spiritually ascend (to the I AM Presence) in this time of "harvest, because he denies the necessity to consciously attune with the etheric and the Buddhic (I AM) levels of self.  "Ra" actually claims that working with these higher levels of consciousness is too "far advanced from the standpoint of third density harvest, nevertheless (these levels) are useful to the Adepts".  "Ra" has written them off as being of no importance in the present with claims that they are not associated with the "harvest".  That is because "Ra's" definition of "harvest" is false.  "Ra's" facsimile is not the opportunity for Ascension we have been waiting for.  And by claiming that 51% STO will result in a density graduation (as described above) "Ra" has written a prescription that will guarantee that most souls oriented in "Service to Others" (who accept that prescription) will fail to actually Ascend after the conclusion of this physical life.  And certainly not around 2012 either.  Instead, those of us who don't balance 51% of our karma will re- incarnate again on this earth in 3d.  And that could easily include souls who gave 51% of self in service to others.

So the problems i see are with both the "Ra" teachings and the "Ra" semantics.  Each of us already occupies the higher bodies which already occupy the higher densities.  Everytime we have ever died (1000s of times) we have found ourselves conscious in a density we already occupied before death.  Depending on FRV and how much emotional and spiritual force was present at death, these determined which of those subtle densities/bodies we became aware of after death.  We had simply lost the physical body and for a time we became more aware of a more subtle body and it's related plane of action.  We didn't "graduate".  We didn't "ascend".  We were not "harvested" and we experienced no "transcendence" in consciousness. (barring a temporary spiritual revelation for some souls before re- incarnating).  Wherever we already were in consciousness, in each density before death, our level of consciousness did not change after death.  We were simply minus a physical body.  Then, soon after, we re- incarnated again (as all souls with karma must) and we took up our physical lives where we left off.  That's been going on for ages and will continue to, except for one very important difference for some souls.

Is it just a co- incidence that right now when the real time of "harvest" comes (defined in the wisdom teachings of the ages as 'ascending into spiritual union with God, for some souls, and, as the final judgement for others') that "Ra" appears with prescriptions and descriptions that confuse virtually everything?... including the 7 bodies/densities and the chakra system?  False descriptions about the essential nature of God (as being both STS and STO); false prescriptions for "density graduation; false statements about the positive role of UFO occupants in spiritual revelation (current and historical); false statements that all spiritual revelation is "heavily distorted"; semantic confusion in order to taint well established definitions for posterity... etc.  When you are a long term planner (as is "Ra" whoever that may be) the labels are important.  As we know from history, with enough time and malintent, faulty labels representing faulty interpretations/descriptions of spiritual truth, always provide the fodder for the STSelfers to rule the roost.   Is this confusion merely the honest misunderstanding of STO forces or is it a STS agenda?  Considering that no channel is 100% perfect, the answer to my question would depend on how untrue it is regarding the things that matter the most.... not to mention the truth regarding metaphysical concepts that are less crucial at a time of real harvest but nevertheless important to posterity. 

The so called STS "graduation" is no different this time (with one caveat i will show later*) to any death experience ever experienced in all the time we've been incarnating on earth (which is much longer than 75000 years).  I gave a basic explanation of what happens at 'death' earlier.  What will happen to souls who choose STS at this time of "harvest"?  A personal choice in this incarnation for the STS path, if "successfully" carried by 95% STS activity, will not result in a "graduation" at death which would be any different from past deaths.  It could not be characterised as being a "harvest" in any way distinct from previous deaths (unless they go to the final judgement*) and the use of the word "ascension" to describe another physical death would be a terrible misnomer considering what the ascension really is.  At death, the STS 'applicant' will go to judgement or he will re- incarnate on earth.  (just like the STO souls who fail to Ascend.)  Yes, to leave the physical body is 'transcending' the physical state (temporarily) but that state is not a transcendence of consciousness for either STO or STS.  And that result (the transcendence of consciousness) is all that matters in this universe.... which explains the validity of the historical use of the word "transcendence".   

montalk wrote:

So if the STS path is taken to its extreme, which Ra claims requires being at least 95% STS, then ascension from 3D STS to 4D STS becomes possible. But since 4D STS is really a type of higher dimensional sub-existence, aka the Abyss / Hell / Hades / Tartarus, it is not at all the same thing as what STO ascension leads toward. But within the STS path itself, yes, the 4D or 5D state is "higher", more sophisticated, more challenging, more refined. But relative to the STO path, it is even more spiritually deadened, atrophied, frozen than even the 3D state. That's why I say it's downward from 3D even though of a higher density.

And because the STS hierarchy is really a pyramid scheme, what occult credit is borrowed to acquire power over others, it piles up and eventually collapses in upon itself like a star collapsing into a black hole, resulting in permanent death of consciousness. This is opposite what the STO path results in, the complete spiritualization of consciousness. My reason for pointing this out is to show that the Ra Material cannot be used to rationalize a cavalier acceptance of psychopathy as a fun and easy way to ascend into the same positive realm that the more arduous STO path of initiation leads toward. The STS path lets you ascend alright, but ascend from the realm of mortal tyrants to the realm of demonic super-parasites. If only we called the STS transition "descension" and "assimilation" instead of ascension and graduation, that would avoid so much semantic confusion.

I agree.  But i believe the confusion serves a purpose and not just for the present.  Historians might look back on this period in a similar way as they look upon the time of Jesus 2000 yrs ago.  Amongst all the dead letter religion of the Pharisees and saducees were various cults with various ideas, some of it pretty wild and mixed with the worst of superstitions and distortions. Even though Jesus cut a swathe through all that, the forces of control got hold of the teaching and re- organised it into an unrecognisable mish mash of truth and lies.  The truth got obscured by odd angles and  tangents which served only to obfuscate the essentials of the message.  Those essentials never change but new dimensions are added in a progressive revelation over time.  And the focus shifts at times.  We are in one of those times now that the "harvest" is upon us, so the opportunity is greater for rapid spiritual evolution.  At such times the chemists come out of the woodwork.  They know that we know in our souls that the time has come for something special.  An opportunity we've been waiting for.  What exactly is it and how exactly do we fulfill it?  All have an agenda and all gather for the harvest.... those who would facilitate it and those who would prevent it.  No- one comes unmasked.  We are seeking within and externally for accurate reflections/descriptions of what is happening and accurate prescriptions for how to fulfill it. 

montalk wrote:

nexus wrote:

If all paths lead to "Rome" what is the point of freewill and choice.  They are rendered meaningless.

Even if there were only one destination, freewill still lets you choose among the different paths. You choose the quality of experience. Do you want the road of love, glory, and peace? Or the road of pain, misery, and hatred? So even if STS and STO paths lead to the same destination, the journeys differ, hence the possibility of choice.

I was thinking about the concept of Justice.  If the destination were the same in the end how could a karma laden being bring his bags into ONENESS with a straight face.

montalk wrote:

The problem I have is not with what you say about the importance of Christ Consciousness and serving others, or the importance of taking the STO path of ascension, but in your claiming that the Ra Material is opposed to this, and that therefore David Wilcock is highly deceived. Instead, a more accurate understanding of the Ra cosmology reveals it to be an extension rather than contradiction.

"Ra" must say something to attract us.  There must be truth there or we wouldn't bother at all.  I believe "Ra's" material is opposed to our best interests because it distorts the real opportunity for ascension by mis- representing what it really is; By mis- prescribing how to achieve it; By dismissing the levels of consciousness that can deliver it (it's absurd to dismiss etheric and Buddhic levels as presently irrelevant); and by jumbling so much of the cosmo- science (ie. The densities/bodies  and the chakra system.... ie 2 chakras are described as having 3 petals and most of the others are jumbled and misrepresented;  By claiming that all religious information came from extraterrestrials/UFOs; By claiming that in a few years there will be a "complete transition of this planet into 4th density; By claiming that the ONE God required evil STS and good STO in this universal equation "in order to get force to work".... etc 

This claim for the essentiality of darkness/evil is the foundational concept that the allegorical serpent in the garden used to tempt the allegorical Adam and Eve.  It wasn't true that Adam and Eve had to eat in order to know what God knows.  God the inner Guide warned them not to know/experience relative good and evil.  The serpent said it was essential.  We all found out the hard way that it was not.  Here comes "Ra" to insist again that evil (personified in the STS entity) is essential (not in this case to outright suggest we choose evil.... but to believe in it's "necessity") and then illustrates it's "necessity" using coulombs law, electric polarity, charged particles etc... even hollywood movies... to "prove" that evil (as the so called negative polarity of God) is essential in order to get the flow of energy and activity necessary for life's "essential" dramas.   Why?  Just so we can choose the path back to Oneness..... by ONE OF TWO "legitimate" paths back to a GOD who is ONE in his dualistic nature..... STS and STO.

God does exist in polarity in the active state but in complimentary polarities.  The creative tension of oppositional battle seems real/essential.  But it is the illusion of duality and is not essential for creative expression.  That duality, if engaged in at the level of the lower- ego only happens in a small spectrum at the circumference of reality.  It is smaller than a pimple on the bum of an elephant the size of a galaxy.  It is not at all an essential polarity of the ONEGod.

Montalk, given that the "Ra" material has set the philosophical backdrop for both STO and STS "graduation"/"ascension" through the densities... 3rd to 4th density.  4th to 5th density.... etc  Are we to assume this continues into higher and higher planes?  Until when?  Unity?  Is it possible in the "Ra" scheme for the dedicated STS entity to merge in unity with the ONE?

Last edited by nexus (2008-02-11 15:01:47)

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#25 2008-02-11 15:47:49

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Re: David Wilcock

titmouse_ wrote:

Nice winter images you've inspired.  I too, enjoy a wonderful walk in the snow fall at night. Hope to get up to the snow soon.

I was wanting to respond to your mention of the loneliness of God--I see a difference between loneliness and aloneness. It seems like aloneness is not a condition which is dominated by desire; whereas, loneliness seems to be a fearful, insecure, yearning for love. Love is God--as many have suggested. In aloneness one can be energized with love; in loneliness one is slowly drained of energy.  Do you see this difference I see?

I do see the difference.

But if God is all love, and all there is, then the best He can do is get the same love back that He gives out.
The best He can do is to recieve the love He already feels for Himself.

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#26 2008-02-11 20:18:19

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Re: David Wilcock

Wilcocks said this about Ascension.


Some people who are practicing the positive path are going to experience this Ascension event, rather than simply a re-loading of the Earth in the astral. The Ascension process is the most ecstatic merger with your Higher Self you will ever experience in any lifetime. It’s a complete homecoming. It’s like everything you ever worked for – all the sacrifice, all the struggle, all the tears and all the pain – suddenly comes to an Omega Point. It is a true quantum shift, where you come into direct contact with a representation of God that is the most inspiring to you that it ever could be.

You actually experience a review of not just this life, but all of your past lives. It essentially moves you through a multi-incarnational life review, to get you down to the exact level of how much progress you’ve made. 

Now, when I say this to people, they freak out: “Oh, my gosh, that means if I haven’t progressed, I might fail somehow!” What we tell them – ‘we’ meaning the higher forces and myself – is, “Look. You have the power to change your life right now.”

This earth is moving into a higher plane where unconditional love is the law of the land. There’s not going to be Illuminati on the planet anymore. The only level in which negatives and positives interact on the same planet is our level now, which the Law of One series calls “third density”. 

As soon as you break out of this level, there’s basically segregation by vibration. It’s not a racist thing – it’s just that the frequencies don’t interrelate any more.

The earth is essentially moving into a sort of Edenic paradise – a Utopia. We have the power to control how quickly and how expediently we move through that by the diligence we have in our own personal growth.

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#27 2008-02-11 22:09:06

montalk
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Re: David Wilcock

nexus wrote:

He further obscures the truth regarding Ascension by distorting the common meaning of words associated with well known spiritual concepts.  The word "ascension" and the associated word "transcendence" do not naturally relate to the downward path of STS and have never been used in those terms.

These terms relate in context of increasing density level. Third density leads to fourth density. Four is a higher number than three. Something smaller, lesser, simpler is left behind, and something larger, greater, more sophisticated is entered. It is irrelevant that previous sources did not include this expanded definition. Why disqualify something for not conforming to the limitation of tradition? You are using a restrictive dictionary to disqualify or misinterpret a more comprehensive language. So the debate becomes more about correcting these misinterpretations than arguing the logical merits of the material. The more false presumptions are made, the more the real debate has to be delayed to clear these up.

Fourth density is not the astral plane. There are many reasons why they are not the same. Fourth density is fundamentally about a higher order of conscious sophistication. Yet, the astral planes are populated by beings and wildlife that are no more advanced than we are, sometimes even less. Discarnate humans on the astral plane are no smarter than they were while alive. They are still very much third density in their behavior, feeling, and thinking. Therefore the astral plane is more like a nonphysical sub-octave of third density. Not until their astral body dissolves do they become fully impersonal and timeless in fifth density.

So it would be incorrect to say that the post-harvest fourth density earth is the astral plane. However, there definitely is disinformation out there that tries to push the astral plane as something else to 'ascend to'. It's just that what these sources try to describe is obviously the astral plane even if disguised. Like with the popular religious conceptions of Heaven or Paradise. But with the Ra Material, the description of fourth density is clearly not the astral plane.

Last edited by montalk (2008-02-11 23:23:02)


Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

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#28 2008-02-12 08:26:38

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Re: David Wilcock

This is a side-topic but I'm attempting to work with the contradictions mentioned by nexus and connections by montalk and have come up with the following working hypotheses....

montalk wrote:

Fourth density is not the astral plane. There are many reasons why they are not the same.

I agree with this statement, but upon further examination I think there may be correspondences which haven't been mentioned yet.  When describing the physical and metaphysical bodies Ra used the term "astral" to define the 4th body.  The 7 main bodies are supposed to correspond to the 7 densities. But as montalk noted, 4th density is not the astral plane, or at least the one we know.  So what's the difference?

Discarnate humans on the astral plane are no smarter than they were while alive. They are still very much third density in their behavior, feeling, and thinking. Therefore the astral plane is more like a nonphysical sub-octave of third density.

Ra and other "Confederation" sources mention both inner and outer planes for 3rd density, and I believe this goes for all densities.  The inner planes relate to the time/space experience while the outer relates to space/time.  Think of the inner planes (time/space) as being veiled from regular vision like the back side of the body while the outer planes (space/time) are visible as is the front side.

In terms of chakras, the 4th or heart chakra relates to the higher emotions (compassion, conscious love, etc) and is so referred to as the higher emotional centre by the Cassiopaeans in their breakdown of the 4th Way explanation of energy centres.  From my understanding of human created esoteric systems (like the 4th way, as opposed to inspired or channeled material), the astral body is the emotional body. It is where emotions experienced in the outer planes can manifest as thought-forms in the inner planes which subsequently have an effect again in the outer planes.

So, Ra calls the 4th body the astral body, and the 4th chakra is the heart chakra.  From esoteric literature we know that the astral body and emotions are linked.  So if the 4th body relates to 4th density then what is the astral body that we use in 3rd density?  The astral plane/body that we in 3rd density experience isn't THE astral plane/body. It seems to be more like a stepped-down version of the 4th or astral and is truly a manifestation of the 3rd density inner planes which correspond to the subconscious.

Does this mean that 4th density is the TRUE astral plane?  The astral plane that humans have reported travelling in is one where time and physicality become more variable than the solid physical and linear-time based reality, or 3rd density outer planes, similar to a lucid dream.  The C's described 4th density as being of variable time/physicalilty and our closest experience of such a plane is our astral.  Given the connection between the astral and emotions I think there may be some validity in linking the truel astral plane to 4th density since the one we inhabit and its related vehicle is a 3rd density "version" of such.

The heart of the body (think body of Creator) is the midpoint as it is 4 and the 4 (in Law of 7 terms) by its very nature stands in between the 3 lower and 3 higher numbers below and above it.  The basic emotions that ALL humans know are intangible and the higher emotions of the heart are even more so because they aren't directed by mental or physical catalyst but by the motion of spirit in the being.  This is why Ra describes the 4th density as being a springboard to accessing intelligent infinity (for STO polarized entities) because the "shuttle" of spirit is activated by the right use of the heart. Emotion is the means by which the mind and physical body interact, and as 4 lies between 1 and 7 we could see the higher emotion of the heart as the regulating function between the higher macrocosmic "mind" and body of the Creator.  It binds the lower body (lower torso) with the upper body (head).  The heart itself, as the binder of lower and upper, requires its own bridge to the fully spiritualized densities of 6th and 7th and this bridge is symbolized by the neck/throat (5th density)  If the 3rd density level of astral is a manifestation of the inner planes then perhaps the mid point (or 4) of said inner planes is the astral plane/body available to us "here".

I don't think it will ever be possible to nail this down in our current state especially since the esoteric terminology, as Ra made a point of noting, varies from source to source and we know full well that due to the imperfect nature of 3rd density existence we can only make approximations and linear models to describe things which are naturally "out of this world".  This being a given, if we never take a stab at trying to figure it out then how will we ever reach the point where we truly understand these various interrelated functions of the Creator experiencing its Creation? So I say, stab away!  Just watch the heart.... wink

(I would appreciate having any logical contradictions and/or misunderstandings pointed out so I can rework the hypothesis if necessary.  But be nice about it smile Thanks!)

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#29 2008-02-12 09:25:08

nexus
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Re: David Wilcock

The points youve chosen to highlight here (from the more important points i raised above) relate to terminology.  I argued the "terms" to point out the more serious errors with "Ra's" scheme. 

montalk wrote:

nexus wrote:

He further obscures the truth regarding Ascension by distorting the common meaning of words associated with well known spiritual concepts.  The word "ascension" and the associated word "transcendence" do not naturally relate to the downward path of STS and have never been used in those terms.

These terms relate in context of increasing density level. Third density leads to fourth density. Four is a higher number than three. Something smaller, lesser, simpler is left behind, and something larger, greater, more sophisticated is entered. It is irrelevant that previous sources did not include this expanded definition. Why disqualify something for not conforming to the limitation of tradition? You are using a restrictive dictionary to disqualify or misinterpret a more comprehensive language. So the debate becomes more about correcting these misinterpretations than arguing the logical merits of the material. The more false presumptions are made, the more the real debate has to be delayed to clear these up

That's what i've been doing too montalk.  Clearing up "Ra's" misinterpretations in the material.  And you are not immune from "false presumptions".  You overlooked a host of questions and points i made in my last post to focus only on your own version of the astral plane as distinct from "Ra's" version of "4th density".  To choose only to discuss the errors you percieve in my last post and to concede only errors of style on behalf of the "Ra" material is a defensive posture.  I will take the time again to re-iterate (in summary) some of the points and questions from my last post but if you will only respond to my errors, real and/or imagined, what's the point of the discussion.

It's true that 4 is a higher number than 3.  When you're counting like that you'are graduating upward true... 3, 4, 5 etc.   What i pointed out is that when talking about the densities/bodies, we already occupy them now.  We know that.  I didn't argue that 4 is not a higher number than 3 and i know you know that too.  I argued that losing the physical body at death (which is the only way a 3d person leaves 3d)) and realising that a subtle body is the lowest one posseses, is not of itself... 1) a "graduation" or 2) a "harvest" or 3) the "ascension" or 4) "transcendence".  You can speak of "transcendence" and "ascension" and "graduation" when counting numbers (from lower to higher) sure, and if you wanted to be contrary (for it's own sake as i believe "Ra" is) then you might even use them to describe the path of STS.  But these words in the "Ra" scheme lose relevence when contrasted with their true definitions in the real scheme of harvest/ascension and judgement.  To fail to use these terms in relation to what they really mean (in relation to the real present opportunity) makes "Ra's" use of them deficient to say the least.  "Ra" denies the actual Ascension and offers a very strange prescription in it's place.  So i don't accept that "Ra" uses a more "comprehensive language" than i do.   In explaining these well known spiritual terms (and others) "Ra" uses very restricted descriptions of greater realities and then further missaplies those well established terms to describe the path of STS.  I'm not impressed with his reasons for doing so.     

Further, i'm not disqualifying "Ra's" use of commonly accepted terms just to be a stickler for terms.  I don't demand "Ra" reflect these terms to me in a familiar form purely to maintain tradition.  Like anyone, i'm looking for reflections of truth and reality that can place past reflections of truth and reality in their true context.  As well as the descriptive deficiencies i mentioned earlier, (in relation to ascension/harvest) i make the point that "Ra's" use of well known terms in an opposite fashion (when speaking of the STS path) is curious also in the context of those other 'gems' i mentioned earlier...  (ie... we are described as "distortions".... attacks by demonic STS entities are "greetings"...... freewill is the "first law of confusion"...)  If i exchanged the words "black" for "white" and "night" for "day" and "love" for "hate" (and gave my justifications and used them in my posts) then at some level it would twist everything else you read even if you understood what i really meant.  Not because the words and descriptions are merely different but because they are opposite.  Similarly, for "Ra" to use the "numbers" to suggest an ascending series of "negative" graduations/ascensions/transcendences is no justification because there is no Ascension of consciousness or transcendence of consciousness in the path of STS. (even if he explains it.)  That is why i say "Ra" is deliberately trying to muddy the waters for now and for posterity.  I made note of several other ridiculous labels that "Ra" has used in place of far better descriptive terms.  Again those labels were (deliberately in my view) opposite and demeaning.  There is a pattern of this in the material and i believe it is the policy.   

montalk wrote:

Fourth density is not the astral plane. There are many reason why they are not the same. Fourth density is fundamentally about a higher order of conscious sophistication. Yet, the astral planes are populated by beings and wildlife that are no more advanced than we are, sometimes even less. Discarnate humans on the astral plane are no smarter than they were while alive. They are still very much third density in their behavior, feeling, and thinking. Therefore the astral plane is more like a nonphysical sub-octave of third density. Not until their astral body dissolves do they become fully impersonal and timeless in fifth density.

The astral plane is not a nonphysical sub-octave of third density any more than the mental plane is a non-astral sub-octave of the astral plane .... or any more than the etheric plane is a non-mental sub-octave of the mental plane.  [It is those semantics which allow "Ra" to claim an indefinable (in terms of the 4 planes of matter) "4th density"].

montalk wrote:

So it would be incorrect to say that the post-harvest fourth density earth is the astral plane. However, there definitely is disinformation out there that tries to push the astral plane as something else to 'ascend to'. It's just that what these sources try to describe is obviously the astral plane even if disguised. Like with the popular religious conceptions of Heaven or Paradise. But with the Ra Material, the description of fourth density is clearly not the astral plane.

I also don't insist that "Ra's 4th density is the astral plane but i do say that the astral plane is the next density to the earth plane.  For over a century the basic paradigm of the 7 levels of universal manifestation have been revealed.  Basically they are 4 material levels and 3 spiritual.  The basic numerology and geometry (eg. the square pyramid) have been outlined to illustrate and explain the 7 levels.  All levels have been given names as have the 'bodies' that relate to each level.  It's a basic well known paradigm that i summarised on page 13 (post #191) of the "magnetics and ascension" thread which anyone is welcome to search and see if it makes sense and resonates.  I accept that it is true.  Because i do, i was speculating about where "Ra's" '4th density' might fit into that scheme.  Barring the already well known 4 material planes (physical, astral, mental. etheric) what could "4th density" be?  Or "5th density"?.... which must be just beyond 4th.  If it is twice removed from 3d then it must still be a subtle material plane.  Which one could it be where we become "fully impersonal and timeless?"  Actually even at the level of the I AM Presence (Buddha) we are still personal.  This is a spiritual level of being at the height of our personal Selfhood.  How does "Ra's" "5th density" fit in with "timeless impersonality?"   Which spiritual level could it be describing?.... And how does "5th density" relate to impersonality by virtue of the dissolution of the astral body, which happens to every soul who transcends the astral plane after death..  Is "5th density" (twice removed from 3d) a subtle material plane or spiritual?  Which one?   

I may as well say outright that what i was hinting at is that if "Ra's" 4th density" is not among those (4 basic material planes) then "Ra's" 4th density' does not exist.  So i was speculating about what else "Ra" might be referring to.  That is why i asked about the astral.  Not because i insist that that is what "Ra" is referring to, but simply because the astral plane is the next level/ density from earth.  And frankly, there is nowhere else to go for an incorrigible, dedicated STSelfer but to the lower astral plane after death.  Why hasn't Ra told us that?  And a STO soul, depending on it's history and personal FRV could go to either astral, mental, or etheric planes after death and is very likely to re-incarnate on 3d earth if the requirements for the (real) ascension are not fulfilled.  They are all the choices.  The simple fact is that we cannot go anywhere (after death) that we are not already at in consciousness.  If "4th density" is not the astral plane then where (in consciousness and realm) is it?  Is the mental plane? or the etheric?  It can't be the etheric because "Ra" has already dismissed that (essential level) as being irrelevant to 3d "harvest".... ("Ra's" 'harvest' that is.... not the real one).  Again i'm not simply demanding a reflection of my terms.  Does "Ra" deny these basic 4 material planes as a valid representation of reality?  If they are a representation of reality, what are "Ra's" terms and how are they reconcilable with this?

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#30 2008-02-12 11:37:48

montalk
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Re: David Wilcock

nexus wrote:

You overlooked a host of questions and points i made in my last post to focus only on your own version of the astral plane as distinct from "Ra's" version of "4th density".  To choose only to discuss the errors you percieve in my last post and to concede only errors of style on behalf of the "Ra" material is a defensive posture.  I will take the time again to re-iterate (in summary) some of the points and questions from my last post but if you will only respond to my errors, real and/or imagined, what's the point of the discussion.

The point is that if these errors are real and persistent, then there is no point to further discussion. But alright, let's discuss anyway and see what comes of it.

nexus wrote:

I argued that losing the physical body at death (which is the only way a 3d person leaves 3d)) and realising that a subtle body is the lowest one posseses, is not of itself... 1) a "graduation" or 2) a "harvest" or 3) the "ascension" or 4) "transcendence".

That's right. Leaving your physical body behind and wandering around in the astral body is not the same thing as 4D graduation, otherwise you would be graduating every night in deep sleep, or after death as you pointed out. The apparent contradiction is that the astral body is said to be the green-ray body, and green-ray is associated with 4D, therefore if graduation to 4D involves inhabiting a 4D body, how is that any different from inhabiting the astral body after death or in sleep?

As Poffo was contemplating, there is a relation between the astral and 4D, without the two being completely identical in all cases. Well, it's like the chakras. We have all of them, but does that mean we are enlightened psychic super beings just because we have all seven? No, it requires total activation and balancing of all chakras to achieve that. There is also a qualitative factor. Ra said we have all bodies "in potentiation" meaning that a plant has the same number (seven) of bodies "in potentiation" as does a higher density being. The only way they can be of different densities, then, is if beings of different densities have different bodies in activation. So in sleep or after death, even if we are no longer actively in the physical, which of our seven bodies are then in activation versus potentiation is still different from the case of a 4D native. Remember that even animals have astral bodies, and they are neither 3rd density nor 4th density, and that plants have ether (indigo-ray) bodies even though they are not sixth density.

nexus wrote:

As well as the descriptive deficiencies i mentioned earlier, (in relation to ascension/harvest) i make the point that "Ra's" use of well known terms in an opposite fashion (when speaking of the STS path) is curious also in the context of those other 'gems' i mentioned earlier...  (ie... we are described as "distortions".... attacks by demonic STS entities are "greetings"...... freewill is the "first law of confusion"...)  If i exchanged the words "black" for "white" and "night" for "day" and "love" for "hate" (and gave my justifications and used them in my posts) then at some level it would twist everything else you read even if you understood what i really meant.  Not because the words and descriptions are merely different but because they are opposite.

The meaning of these terms were clear. "Distortion" means a perturbation away from an undifferentiated absolute state of unity. "Greeting" means a contact event intended to depolarize. "First law of confusion" has to do with having to make up your own mind. You can exchange "black" for "white" if you define black as "the color of snow" and white as "the color of coal." In german "gift" means poison while in english "gift" means a present, it is the definition that counts and not the word. This is semantics again. Although, yes, better terms could have been used for those same definitions. That's why I like the Cassiopaean material more than the Ra Material when it comes to handling the STS subject; it calls an attack an attack.

nexus wrote:

Similarly, for "Ra" to use the "numbers" to suggest an ascending series of "negative" graduations/ascensions/transcendences is no justification because there is no Ascension of consciousness or transcendence of consciousness in the path of STS. (even if he explains it.)

Then what do you call it when someone of the STS path acquires so much occult power, knowledge of manipulation, and experience in conquest that remaining a limited third density human serves no further purpose? What about those non-human, beyond-time, technologically sophisticated, telepathic, cunning dark entities that are best described as 4D STS? How did they get there? If they are just lower astral beings, how is it that they easily become fully physical, have underground bases here in America, have ships and physical instruments? They can access the astral plane but don't seem to not be limited to it.

nexus wrote:

The astral plane is not a nonphysical sub-octave of third density any more than the mental plane is a non-astral sub-octave of the astral plane .... or any more than the etheric plane is a non-mental sub-octave of the mental plane.  [It is those semantics which allow "Ra" to claim an indefinable (in terms of the 4 planes of matter) "4th density"].

Good point, I agree with you. So I'll revise and go with something closer to what Poffo was suggesting, that within the inner planes there are various levels, and of those levels there are some that are more accessible to us as 3D humans because they correspond to our vibratory level and development. Meanwhile 4D STS can access the lower parts of the inner planes, while 4D STO can access the higher parts of these inner planes. But those are just the 4D STS, 3D STS, and 4D STO  time/space realms, whereas there are also space/time realms for those. The 3D STS space/time realm being what we are in right now, 4D STO space/time realm being, for instance that higher earth that awaits 4D STO graduates. See:

Ra material wrote:

Ra: I am Ra. Entities inhabit the various planes due to their
vibration/nature. The astral plane varies from thought-forms in the lower
extremities to enlightened beings who become dedicated to teach/learning
in the higher astral planes.

In the devachanic planes, as you call them, are those whose vibrations are
even more close to the primal distortions of love/light.

So now I'll make my argument. Everything taken together, a distinction has to be made between the space/time versus time/space aspect of 4D, whether it is negative or positive 4D, whether it involves the lower or higher astral planes,  whether the green-ray body is just in potential or whether it is fully active, and whether the green-ray body is one's center of gravity. It seems to me that a 3D person in his astral state either doesn't have the astral body fully activated, or else does not have the green-ray as his center of gravity because his thoughts and perspectives are still very much mired in 3D, whereas a native to 4D not only has the green-ray body activated and forming the center of gravity, but has access to the 4D time/space (higher astral) and 4D space/time realms. The 3D being can only access the 3D time/space realm even though it is the astral realm, just not the higher portion of it. So with that, there is full justification for the Harvest to 4D STO, because 3D astral state is not the same.

nexus wrote:

Which one could it be where we become "fully impersonal and timeless?"  Actually even at the level of the I AM Presence (Buddha) we are still personal.  This is a spiritual level of being at the height of our personal Selfhood.  How does "Ra's" "5th density" fit in with "timeless impersonality?"   Which spiritual level could it be describing?.... And how does "5th density" relate to impersonality by virtue of the dissolution of the astral body, which happens to every soul who transcends the astral plane after death..  Is "5th density" (twice removed from 3d) a subtle material plane or spiritual?  Which one?

You're more familiar with that system than I am, but if the human being is divided into physical, etheric, astral, and mind, then at fifth density only the mind remains. It remains without the passions imprinted in the astral body, nor the biases stamped into the etheric body, nor of course the biological drives of the physical. So by impersonal, I meant without the mortal 3D personality. There is still individualized consciousness.

nexus wrote:

I may as well say outright that what i was hinting at is that if "Ra's" 4th density" is not among those (4 basic material planes) then "Ra's" 4th density' does not exist.  So i was speculating about what else "Ra" might be referring to.  That is why i asked about the astral.  Not because i insist that that is what "Ra" is referring to, but simply because the astral plane is the next level/ density from earth.  And frankly, there is nowhere else to go for an incorrigible, dedicated STSelfer but to the lower astral plane after death.

Now I'm pretty sure that is not the case, and that the dedicated STS initiate does have some place to go other than the lower astral plane. This is not something spelled out in the Ra Material, but it goes back to the space/time versus time/space concept. If this lower astral plane is negative time/space, then the other place where an STS initiate goes upon graduation is negative space/time. That makes perfect sense even in context of the Cassiopaean material where 4D is said to be the state of variable physicality, meaning volitional mobility between the physical or etheric states, mobility between lower astral planes or 4D negative space/time and everything in between. For posterity, here is Ra's description of 4D, which I take to be 4D positive space/time:

Questioner: Thank you. Is it possible for you to give a short description of
the conditions in the fourth density?

Ra: I am Ra. We ask you to consider as we speak that there are not words
for positively describing fourth density. We can only explain what is not
and approximate what is. Beyond fourth density our ability grows more
limited until we become without words.

That which fourth density is not: it is not of words, unless chosen. It is not
of heavy chemical vehicles for body complex activities. It is not of
disharmony within self. It is not of disharmony within peoples. It is not
within limits of possibility to cause disharmony in any way.
Approximations of positive statements: it is a plane of type of bipedal
vehicle which is much denser and more full of life; it is a plane wherein one
is aware of the thought of other-selves; it is a plane wherein one is aware of
vibrations of other-selves; it is a plane of compassion and understanding of
the sorrows of third density; it is a plane striving towards wisdom or light; it
is a plane wherein individual differences are pronounced although
automatically harmonized by group consensus.

Just a sidenote concerning dreams: what we visit in dreams -- if not our own subconscious projections -- would be the parts of the astral plane that correspond to our 3D vibratory level. Whereas 4D, while similar to dreams in its fluidity, is therefore not the same thing because 4D encompasses levels of the inner planes and densities of spacetime that we cannot access ourselves.


Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

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