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#1 2007-08-28 04:03:51

Antaeus
Member
Registered: 2007-07-06

Sharing pain

In my profession I meet a lot of different people and there is always conversation that arises.  I notice patterns, for instance, I notice a lot of women who have symptons of MS, and then I read about aspartame.  That really made think.  I wonder why that shit is even available to the consumer.  Or I would be curious about something, for instance, at what age do people realize they need to use reading glasses.  The winner btw, was age 46. 

There have been a lot of times when I can be an ass, actually I am prone to it.  I felt a lady was being a bit intransigent once, so I started being a bit mean, and she broke down crying and informed me that her husband just had a stroke, and to be brief, just did not need my attitude.  I glanced in the next room and could see a man with his back to me, sitting in a chair facing the tv, and I could imagine what mental state he was in, just having experienced a stroke.   

There are times when things arise in my thoughts, that make tears want to well up, and I always hold them back.  It always hurts right in my throat. I wonder why it hurts there.  When it is real life, I will not cry.  But some stupid sad moment in a movie, I let a tear or so get out. 

Today, a lady started talking about her son, and how he gets upset and unmanageable.  All I said was, that an indicator of spiritual evolution is when a person does not become very disturbed over the many and varied concepts that arise each day in the life.  She came back with, " well, I'm not into the scientology stuff."  I've never studied any of that stuff.  Well anyway, she went on to say that her son has been diagnosed with bipolar behavior disorder.  So I wondered out loud if they were prescribing medicine to him.  Of course that was an affirmative.  So I made some small remarks on how they like to get rich messing up the endocrine systems of people.  She said that he would literally be extremely dangerous if he didn't take it.  This bipolar behavior disorder is another thing I'm seeing more of.  That is kind of scary. 

It seems like a self fulfilling prophecy type of thing.  You convince a person that it is quite probable he may fly into a rage and seriously harm another, unless this medication is taken, I see probabilities in this.  What if the person says, "I don't like what this medication is doing to me.  It is making me not my self.  I'm not going to take it for a while."  Now he feels that whatever he does is kind of a freebie.  "Well, I wasn't on my medication."  I know, this has probably arisen in discussion and at length many times.

If this is physiological, rather than psychological, the conclusion is that these people were born with inherent urges to harm or kill another.  I don't buy that, it has to be more than entirely physiological, or even if it is, a person should be able to learn how to make it a very subordinate aspect of his overall  state of being.


Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
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#2 2007-08-28 05:56:36

joeman
Member
Registered: 2007-07-31

Re: Sharing pain

Are you a pharmacist?  In most Asian countries mental illnesses are almost never diagnosed and much less treated.  I am sure there are lots of mentally ill people walking around and people don't know about them.  But many brilliant people in history are mentally ill.  In Western world I can think of Van Gough, Nietsche, Martin Luther.


John 10:34

Jesus answered, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'?

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#3 2007-08-28 15:34:14

Falvion
Tree in the Forest
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2007-08-14

Re: Sharing pain

Antaeus, the reason you're feeling your throat ache when you hold in your emotions is that the throat chakra is about expression and speaking your truth. Maybe when we get "lumps in our throat," that's actually the emotions rising, waiting to be let out. And if they're not expressed, your throat gets tight, maybe even hurts.

I know that when I hold in what I'm feeling around other people, it's usually an issue of trust. I don't want to be that wide-open even in front of my good friends most of the time, and this is a lifelong project that I'm working on. wink On the other hand, it's not always appropriate to "wear your emotions on your sleeve," as my dad would say. There are times when it's better to wait for a calmer moment to speak your mind. This is just simple self-control. Yet that doesn't imply keeping everything to yourself forever. It's a matter, as always, of balance.

I know you've probably heard this a million times, but it's true--if you have trouble expressing things verbally, try keeping a journal. It really does help.

Cheers


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#4 2007-08-28 17:43:16

Prances Fences
Thank you Tom
From: Denver
Registered: 2006-08-25

Re: Sharing pain

Falvion wrote:

the reason you're feeling your throat ache when you hold in your emotions is that the throat chakra is about expression and speaking your truth.

This REALLY grabbed my attention....I'm so glad you shared this great information.  It explains a lot for me.... I have wondered for a really long time why I am so comforted by holding my throat and chest area during times of stress or highly charged emotions.  Grabbing my throat and resting it up on my neck area has been this strange, unconscious compulsion I have been confused by my doing for so long.  What a mind blow! (Thank you soooo much for that information!!!!! ♥)


Antaeus wrote:

You convince a person that it is quite probable he may fly into a rage and seriously harm another, unless this medication is taken

I agree with your sentiments on this being an extremely dangerous and unhealthy attitude which so many people have accepted about this 'disorder'.  My mother is one of those unfortunate people... and I have watched her indulge in completely unreasonable compulsive behavior, jack her system around switching from this medication to that (they even had her on lithium for awhile!), and consistently depend on her chemical imbalance or her medication issues to assume the responsibility for her choices and actions.  It's a very sad, sick process to watch a person go through.  They do let themselves believe it so strongly that when they 'throw their caution to the wind' it becomes a chaotic tornado of compulsion and dependency that is seems to blind them of any sense of ownership for their actions.  Worse yet is the way these people will turn around and praise their medication for keeping them sane.  At least with my pushy mama... I've watched her be unwelcomingly pushy towards me and everyone else around about how they need to get on medication.  Any time she has been aware of even the slightest amount of stress in my life, she immediately insists that I need to get on medication.  It's extremely frustrating because she will do this even during calm, stress free times out of the blue - when I am very content & happy.  It's pretty scary.  At one point (and actually I believe still to this day) almost everyone in my family was on some sort of anti-depressant.  I think most of my aunts and uncles still are.  My ma almost looks at it like 'her mission' to find these crazy controlling ways to 'introduce' (or pressure) people into believing that they too are emotionally incompetent and need to medicate themselves.  She recently traveled across the country and lied to everyone about what she was doing to indulge in an affair that she has been entertaining for the past year (actually past 20 years).  While out their she justified her behavior by convincing her depressed beau to start taking anti-depressants (so she was 'called out there' - shes quite the pharmaceutical angel).  When I was 17...I was going through a break up and I finally let her convince me to get on Prozac.  Luckily, I took myself off of it after about a year and a half.. but she has never stopped insisting I 'need to be on something'.  It's insane.  I'll add that depression does run in my family, between my mom being diagnosed 'bi polar' along with the several generations of males on my father's side who have all committed suicide.  I still refuse to accept the belief that my feelings and emotions (which ARE plentiful, but so sane in comparison to this crap) are anything but normal.  That being said I do think there is something to the concept of some of this behavior seeming genetic, or at the very least learned behavior that is most definitely contagious.  Nonetheless, I still feel people can also learn to be more conscious of the motivations for their actions and feelings to enable them to take responsibility for themselves without needing the aid of their medications or their disorder.  What a gigantic run-on paragraph that was... whoops!

Last edited by Prances Fences (2007-08-28 17:50:01)

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#5 2007-08-29 01:07:05

Antaeus
Member
Registered: 2007-07-06

Re: Sharing pain

What a gigantic run-on paragraph that was... whoops!  smile  You can get away with that if you are interesting.  You've gained a lot of insight from observation.  I think what you described is not an uncommon thing in America.  Even though I don't like the, "give them a pill" mentality, your family still has merit for addressing a problem.  She found a way of living her life.  And you found a way of doing more than following her.  You know what your free will is.

And Falvion gave a concept about the throat chakra.  You know, as soon as I read that, I got a memory of the ending scene of the, "Gladiator" when Maximus was lying dead in the arena with the Emperor's sister kneeling over him.  She put her hand to her forehead.  What do you say about that?

Joeman, hi.  No, not a pharmacist.  America is unbalanced in a way that China isn't.  We reacted to dogma in a severe manner.  I would say, just guessing, well actually I don't want to name a point in time when we started doing this, but we had men of intelligence who simply started using scientific format for understanding Reality.  I'm being extremely concise, so my point will be very weak, but, what we did was get rid of a lot of valueable religious and philosophic wisdom when we went to science.  I believe that science, religion and philosophy are intrinsic to each of us as we stumble towards the Truth.  We are way too involved in science and have been neglecting the other two, especially religion.  That is why I study Theosophy, it will not condemn any religion, for it has found that Universal Principles exist in everyone of them.  It is just that some principles get more attention than others, depending on the many differences inherent among the many different races of the world.  I found this thing called Anthroposophy too.  Just recently I came across it.  It is a lot of reading though.  I've been reading Rudolph Steiner's articles concerning the period between death and rebirth.  But this subject concerning the palladium has me right now.  My teacher in Theosophy has had the whole month of August off for vacation.  I'm going to try to get in a jibe concerning how old she must be to rate an entire month of vacation time. big_smile

Last edited by Antaeus (2007-08-29 01:08:53)


Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
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You have to believe in the impossible in order to become.

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#6 2007-08-29 02:36:35

Falvion
Tree in the Forest
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2007-08-14

Re: Sharing pain

I've always felt that, way deep down at the central core of things, science, philosophy and religion are actually saying the same thing. It's not so much that we lost the more esoteric parts, but that because of our focus on the physical they have become fragmented and harder to recover. Each uses different language to attempt to explain the same truths, and regrettably, that's part of the problem. (And this from someone who loves words...) After a while, you get caught up in the form of the words (dogma, for example) and no longer listen to the meaning and intent behind them.

All isn't lost, however. You just have to learn to listen to what's underneath all the words again. Find the universal principles, as you say, Antaeus. smile They're all there.

Now as for that scene in "Gladiator": I haven't seen that movie in a while, but my guess would be that maybe that was a moment of realization for her that the cause Maximus died for was true and perhaps bigger than all of them? Forehead is the pineal gland, the third eye, having to do with communication with the higher self, or higher knowledge. Please correct me if I'm way off...

Check this out: www.crystalinks.com/thirdeyepineal.html

Cheers


Look... Wonder... Remember... Know

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#7 2007-08-29 12:40:25

treehugger
Member
Registered: 2006-02-06

Re: Sharing pain

Prances Fences...You nailed it on the head for me, talking about your mother.  I have a friend who was diagnosed two yrs ago, as bi-polar. Ive watched her have her meds changed a gazillion times, her choice by the way, because" it wasnt doing what it was supposed to do". Oh yeah, and the completely irrational, compulsive behavior, is explained away, because, "the new meds havent kicked in yet". So she calls it "having a note", she thinks she's allowed to be compulsive and irrational, because she has a disorder, so we all have to forgive and forget when she has her "moments". Being on meds as far as I can see, has not  helped her at all, other than give  her an excuse for her past or present indiscretions.  Oh and one of her other friends, at age 36, determined she is ADD, so she went on meds for it.  I mean, come on.....

Last edited by treehugger (2007-08-29 12:40:54)


In man's analysis and understanding of himself, it is as well to know from whence he came as whither he is going.   Edgar Cayce

Beliefs are tools for social conditioning, rather than expressions of inner realization or inner truth.   unknown
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#8 2007-08-29 20:47:18

MonAmie-Zylo
Member
From: West Coast, BC, Canada
Registered: 2007-02-12
Website

Re: Sharing pain

Just wondering, Prances Fences, was your Mother ever taken to the psychiatric ward and monitored? 
And TreeHugger, was your friend ever been in the psychiatric' ward for any periods of time?


Hm!,I wonder now, do these people drink alcohol while taking their 'medication?
Are they covering-up something here? 



Oh! and Anteus,  this woman's son, do you know how old this fellow is?
A couple of years ago, I met a young woman of 18 years of age and she needs to take
medication for bi-polar disorder (manic-depression).  However, she ran away from home at the age of 13 and lived outside for 5 years. 
I asked her if her manic-depression was induced by taking drugs, e.i mushrooms, etc.  She replied Yes.

And no she was not unruly.  But she really needed to take them, I believe, that street drugs did cause a bio-chemical imbalance.
I mean all teenagers need to self-express and usually parents shut-them-up! Anyhow, I included this young woman's story
just a reminder of other stuff to think about.

Last edited by MonAmie-Zylo (2007-08-29 21:26:24)

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#9 2007-08-30 00:45:36

Antaeus
Member
Registered: 2007-07-06

Re: Sharing pain

I wasn't trying to promote a ban on prescribed medications by psychiatrists and psychologists.  I was just saying that somewhere inside each person there is that which is sought.

Falvion, I think there are two chakra's in the head.  It is something I have looked at but kind of set aside for a bit.  One thing I stick with from Gurjieff, is that kundalini warning.  Through imagination I can conjure all kinds of concepts concerning what I may be and in fact, I'm just living in a body using what I know to try and increase what I know, while working all the damn time, and not getting paid enough money.  Actually, I don't have any ambition anymore and have no complaints about my earnings.

I have found that though others might not suffer what I suffer, yet, they too experience suffering.  I've bourne mine for so long that I am capable finally, to remove my attention from it to witness it in others.  And feel.


Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
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You have to believe in the impossible in order to become.

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#10 2007-08-30 17:55:24

Falvion
Tree in the Forest
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2007-08-14

Re: Sharing pain

[Antaeus said]    ...I have found that though others might not suffer what I suffer, yet, they too experience suffering.  I've bourne mine for so long that I am capable finally, to remove my attention from it to witness it in others.  And feel.

Yeah, it all comes down in the end to compassion, doesn't it? This is when you realize we're all the same even though we're different, we're all connected.

You're right, there are two chakras in the head. The other one is the crown chakra, just above the top of your head. It's funny--I'm not a Buddhist or particularly caught up in New Age philosophy, but somehow from all my reading, these little nuggets are just rolling around in my head. smile

If I may ask, what was Gurdjieff's warning about kundalini? I haven't read him yet, but that sounds interesting.

Cheers

Last edited by Falvion (2007-08-30 17:56:02)


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#11 2007-08-30 18:12:51

Prances Fences
Thank you Tom
From: Denver
Registered: 2006-08-25

Re: Sharing pain

MonAmie-Zylo wrote:

Was your Mother ever taken to the psychiatric ward and monitored?
...
Hm!,I wonder now, do these people drink alcohol while taking their 'medication?

My mom has never been monitored in the psychiatric ward... at least to my knowledge.  She does see a therapist from the mental health department of her hospital, which is of course the person who prescribes her medications.  She rarely drinks alcohol, so I don't think that's been a real factor for her... but she does take other drugs and medications that could be causing issues.


treehugger wrote:

I have a friend who was diagnosed two yrs ago, as bi-polar. Ive watched her have her meds changed a gazillion times, her choice by the way, because" it wasn't doing what it was supposed to do". Oh yeah, and the completely irrational, compulsive behavior, is explained away, because, "the new meds haven't kicked in yet". So she calls it "having a note", she thinks she's allowed to be compulsive and irrational, because she has a disorder, so we all have to forgive and forget when she has her "moments".

I too find this hard to understand.  It's so frustrating to watch people trivialize their behavior with the crutches of their disorder.  That seems to me to lead to indulgence instead of health or growth.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised about that 36 year old lady who went on meds for ADD... but I am.  I wonder how these people rationalize their pre-medicated states as intolerable enough to do this to themselves.  I think it's more likely they run out of excuses for the intolerable behaviors they have identified with for too long.  But I could be overly judgmental about this just because of my own experiences.  I will give them credit for recognizing their problem, and trying.  They still confuse me, though.


Antaeus wrote:

Even though I don't like the, "give them a pill" mentality, your family still has merit for addressing a problem.  She found a way of living her life.  And you found a way of doing more than following her.

That was well said, and thank you for mentioning the merit in my families attempts to address a problem.  I think that's a great point.  I do realize that people can become so lost in their own heads that they do seem to lose touch with their real feelings and motivations.  It is a huge step just to recognize that you have issues, and seek the best way to deal with them.  People do need help sometimes, and when they don't know where to turn it makes sense that medication would seem like a good idea.  I just wish that wasn't the first place people turn to for answers- because I think there are plenty of other options that people don't seem empowered enough to recognize.

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#12 2007-08-31 01:13:39

Antaeus
Member
Registered: 2007-07-06

Re: Sharing pain

MonAmie-Zylo wrote:
Was your Mother ever taken to the psychiatric ward and monitored?
...
Hm!,I wonder now, do these people drink alcohol while taking their 'medication?

My mom has never been monitored in the psychiatric ward... at least to my knowledge.  She does see a therapist from the mental health department of her hospital, which is of course the person who prescribes her medications.  She rarely drinks alcohol, so I don't think that's been a real factor for her... but she does take other drugs and medications that could be causing issues.

-------------------------------------------
Wow!  I thought you might have lashed out.  That was good.  I've been giving a lot of thought concerning anger and aggression.  I believe they are almost always inappropriate.  I believe that they become habitual, reinforce mechanicalness.  There may be times when a person has to be fierce, which has nothing to do with anger or aggression, but rather an unwavering resolve. 

Falvion.  What I wrote about kundalini is from, "In Search of the Miraculous." by P. D. Ouspenski, who was a student of Georges Gurjieff.  It is on page two twenty.  Kundalini can keep me from waking, dying and being reborn, because I can through imagination believe that I am something that does not need to change. 

To awaken means to realize ones nothingness, that is to realize one's complete and absolute mechanicalness and one's complete and absolute helplessness.

One must die all at once and forever after having made a certain effort, having surmounted a certain obstacle, having taken a certain decision from which there is no going back.

Being born relates to the beginning of a new growth of essence, the beginning of the formation of individuality, the beginning of the appearance of one indivisible I.

I mentioned to a person at work, who has always been a fundamentalist Christian, how many times in the New Testament, refence is made to awaking.  BTW, tomorrow is his last day, a competitor lured him away with more money. grrrr.  He said that he had never noticed this.  I never got around to showing him.

Rom. 13:11.  And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 Cor. 15:34  Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 Cor. 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

1 Thes. 5:5,6  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: We are not of the night, nor of darkness.  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Eph. 5:14  Wherefore he saith.  Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

When you study Theosophy you enable yourself to understand the Bible better than people that have been going to church since childhood.  Don't get the wrong idea by my listing verses.  I just printed these because of their common theme of awaking.
There is a song by Evanescence, where she is singing ' wake me from the nothing I've become '.  That is the other issue, according to Gurjieff, you can't do this on your own.  Someone already awake has to present a series of shocks to you in order to awaken you.  A person that fits this criteria usually is already involved in important work to do.

However if you have read any of the articles written by Montalk, you will see that Gurjieff is not the last word on the subject.


Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
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You have to believe in the impossible in order to become.

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#13 2007-08-31 01:25:22

Nyarlathotep
Guest

Re: Sharing pain

I like your tag Antaeus. Thats a very good quote.  I might add that not having all the proper information makes one perpetuate a situation by just being in the dark. I was on all kinds of medications for anxiety and bi polar disorder a few years ago. I had massive panic attacks and mood swings and I thought I was doomed for life. No I wasnt saved by jesus or scientology. After years of suffering and thousands of dollars of medical bills and pills like xanax, valium, remeron,flurazepam,buspar and more I finally found somthing that cured me completely.

The point being, I was ignorant of what anxiety actually was and my choices during my anxiety years were nothing more than habits that my brain learned over time and eventually my amygdala was on constant autopilot. A lot of people simply DONT KNOW certain things.  I try not to hold it against people. I had a friend that thought she had a disease called anxiety and I could not convince her to just try the method that I discovered and cured myself with. She eventually overdosed on xanax, and so did her boyfriend who was my best friend at the time. 

I can only share this information with people that are trully looking and WANT somthing else other than medical opinions and reassurance that they are not crazy, dying and so on like I always did when I had panic. I have found that physiology and psychology go hand in hand and that little tid bit of information is part of the method that I cured myself with.

BTW it's called the Linden Method and I shamelessly promote it when I can because it literally saved my life. No religion, no drugs, no doctors. Just a very simple method created by a man who himself had suffered with anxiety ,ocd, panic and phobias for over 25 years and discovered a cure ALONE. Obviously in this case personal experience and bravery is what ultimately caused Mr. Linden to discover the cure through reverse engineering. 

I just felt I had to bring this up because I have my own thoughts of Big Pharma, doctors, and the medical industry as a whole because they NEVER helped me while I was suffering. Sure I had brief moments of relief when I was on xanax and valium, BUT it only made it worse. Its like putting a bandaid over an offensive wound which only allows it to get infected and go septic. That is exactly what happened, I just got worse and worse until I thought I was going to just be crazy forever.

Here is a video with Charles Linden. http://youtube.com/watch?v=kUCPVx3hieg

Watch the testimonies of the other people who cured themselves also. THeir stories are very close to mine in that they thought they were basically doomed for life and very very desperate.  I cured myself over two years ago and am completely 100% panic and anxiety free. No more fear, no more dreadful sensations, no more disturbing thoughts etc etc. It's all gone and can never return because I KNOW THE TRUTH! Actually, Charles explains in the method that once he cured himself a strange sense of clearity came over him and has been with him ever since. I says that almost every sufferer that cures themselves reports the same kind of thing, and I'm one of them. I feel stronger for having been through what I've been through, and I love the opprotunity to help others who are feeling weak and ridden with anxiety. It's almost like I can just give them my wisdom of what it is, where it comes from, and give them the information nessesary to turn it around.

I tried going to an anxiety chat once and I was trying to tell everyone about this method and one guy posted and said " how much are they paying you for this? This can't possibly work. It's too good to be true and you should be ashamed filling peoples heads with false promises". Go figure. In my opinion, and please allow me to express my anger here, there is too much information out there on anxiety, panic, ocd, phobias and the like that are just plain wrong and it upsets me greatly to see these other videos on youtube and these websites that are going about the whole thing all wrong. Listening to a doctor or psychologist talk about this issues really REALLY pisses me off. I recently tried telling a doctor who specializes with these conditions and after all I told him, and after everything I showed him he still said " yes but you need to understand that being a good marketer and seller of a product creates a placebo affect".  I tried not to get too angry, and I even sent him my method pack because I do not need to use it anymore. He was very thankful for that and said he would even give it to his next patient to measure the results.

Last edited by Nyarlathotep (2007-08-31 01:43:57)

 

#14 2007-08-31 03:03:40

Antaeus
Member
Registered: 2007-07-06

Re: Sharing pain

I just felt I had to bring this up because I have my own thoughts of Big Pharma, doctors, and the medical industry as a whole because they NEVER helped me while I was suffering. Sure I had brief moments of relief when I was on xanax and valium, BUT it only made it worse. Its like putting a bandaid over an offensive wound which only allows it to get infected and go septic. That is exactly what happened, I just got worse and worse until I thought I was going to just be crazy forever.

Here is a video with Charles Linden. http://youtube.com/watch?v=kUCPVx3hieg
----------------

Hi Nyarlathotep.  I think I'll go take a look at that.  Have you ever pondered how information and knowledge gives some insight into what essence is, and how to nurture it?  Come to think of it, I might just post that for discussion.  I'd like to see a variety of minds describe to me what they believe essence is.


Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
----------------------------------------------------------
You have to believe in the impossible in order to become.

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#15 2007-08-31 14:19:05

Falvion
Tree in the Forest
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2007-08-14

Re: Sharing pain

I had a pretty severe car accident about six years ago and totally melted into a state of anxiety. A doctor whom I saw for about 15 minutes prescribed Paxil for me. So for the next year while I was on it, I did nothing but sleep (about 14 hours a day) and go to work. It was only when I took myself off the drug that the clouds cleared and I began to deal with the actual problems I had. It seems like so many people have stories like this.

Nyarlathotep, I'm going to check out the Linden Method too. Thanks for the "shameless promotion." wink

Thanks, Antaeus, for the excellent info. Gurdjieff and Ouspensky are on my reading list, which grows longer by the hour, it seems... and no, I rarely take anyone's word as the last one. smile

Have you investigated the Gnostic Christian material, the Dead Sea scrolls and Nag Hammadi library? That was the first place I turned when I realized how empty my fundamentalist Christian "faith" was. And that propelled to me to study just about everything else. Now, almost 30 years later, I'm looking at the Gnostic material again--it's kind of a full circle moment for me--and it's like I can see a whole new level of meaning now.

It's kind of great that truth is pretty much everywhere you look, IF you look.

And good idea for a new thread, "essence."

Cheers


Look... Wonder... Remember... Know

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