1 (edited by cameron 2004-03-31 18:49:54)

Topic: free energy from nature

This post is dedicated to the free energy topic.  I'm reading a book called The Energy Evolution, and wanted to share some of it's contents.

The author is the Austrian-born Viktor Schauberger.  Here are a few pages dedicated to him, found on this website.

Only half way through the book, but here is a brief quote that struck me.

In the naturalesque - formative - direction of acceleration, which must take place along the longitudinal axis (centripetally) [as opposed to centrifugally], so-called electricism acts as the absolutely indispensable resistance for all motion.  As the formative velocity rises, the resistance increases commensurately in order to provide the additional frictional (resisting) surfaces required by the accelerating matter.  the actual loss of formative energy associated with this amunts to about 4%, i.e. in this case approximately 96% of the formative energy (= magnetism streaming upwards at enormous speed = levitism) is freed, which sucks up its generating device and a portion of its immediate environs in its wake.  In other words, the 'all attracting' comes into being and becomes active with elemental ur-force.

Schauberger has a number of patents claiming devices which work with this "cycloid-space-curve-motion", as he calls "naturalesqe, formative" motion.  He differentiates "centripetal" radial motion from "centrifugal".  His main contributions seem to lay on a theory of water and implosion [vs. explosion].  There is a definite link between this material and Keely's, as well as Walter Russell's.

some background

Apparently, Victor died a longly and painful death after coming the US and being manipulated into signing his best theories and patents away to the government.  This after a long battle to deny Hitler his wish for Victor to create technology to for the Reich.

Has anyone had any experience with this material?  What other material can be shared on this topic?

2 (edited by phlux 2004-03-31 21:10:08)

Re: free energy from nature

I am reading Tesla's works right now (jsut started so not much to say on it yet) - but I am extremely interested in all things energy. As enery (in all forms) is a source of control - both good and bad.

I am currently researching getting a bio-diesel vehicle, or possibly a TDI. (prefer bio-diesel, so if anyone knows anythign about this - please chime in...

Anyway - while I am not familiar with what you are talking about - one thing that instantly popped into my head when reading the quote you posted was utilizing the available water pressure already provided to each house hold to supply power... I dont know why but this was a strong thought as I was reading the quote.

I will look into it more - to see if it is possible to create a small hydro-pressure power plant hooked in line with the water supply to a home to produce electricity while not incurring a water bill...



"It's hard to advance freedom in a country that has been strangled by tyranny." - G.W. Bush 04/13/2004

3 (edited by montalk 2005-12-12 10:38:05)

Re: free energy from nature

Some over-unity magnetic motors:

1) Minato magnetic motor: it's a motor using permanent magnets that is cheaper than conventional motors, puts out more energy than goes into it, and is now in production.


Looking carefully at the rotor, we see that it has over 16 magnets embedded on a slant --  apparently to make Minato's machines work, the positioning and angle of the magnets is critical. After she kicks the wheel into life, it keeps spinning, proving at least that the design doesn't suffer from magnetic lockup.

...Nobue explains to us that this and all the other devices only use electrical power for the two electromagnetic stators at either side of each rotor, which are used to kick the rotor past its lockup point then on to the next arc of magnets. Apparently the angle and spacing of the magnets is such that once the rotor is moving, repulsion between the stators and the rotor poles keeps the rotor moving smoothly in a counterclockwise direction. Either way, it's impressive.

...The magnetic motor will be cheaper than a standard motor to make, as the rotor and stator assemblies can be set into plastic housings, due to the fact that the system creates very little heat. Further, with the motor's energy efficiency, it will be well suited for any application where a motor has limited energy to drive it. While development is still focused on replacing existing devices, Minato says that his motor has sufficient torque to power a vehicle.

With the help of magnetic propulsion, it is feasible to attach a generator to the motor and produce more electric power than was put into the device. Minato says that average efficiency on his motors is about 330 percent.

Minato's latter US Patent

Minato's earlier US Patent

2) Here is another device powered by magnets, the Finsrud Device. (pics and video)

This is a complicated machine that works on a simple principle: a metal pendulum will move chaotically above a random arrangement of magnets. This is because magnetic domains have chaotic edges between each other. Due to the fractal nature of the magnetic field created, the probability that the pendulum will find an equilibrium spot is close to zero, thus it keeps moving. The actual Finsrud Device is more complicated, but relies upon random or sensitive triggers to allow magnets to keep pulling or pushing another magnetic object - similar to Minato's motors having electromagnets to push things past their magnetic lock-up point. This little energy investment leads to a larger energy output.

3) And lastly, Howard Menger once advertised plans for a "perpetual motion machine" consisting of a flywheel and a ring magnet on an axis, with an external horseshoe magnet straddling the magnet via its repulsive field. The horseshoe magnet was free to swing a little within the limits of a spring keeping it in place. The swinging horeshoe magnet and spring once again act like a random trigger factor keeping a magnetic system going. 

Here is a PDF of Menger's plans for his magnetic device: http://montalk.net/menger.pdf

- Tom

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

4 (edited by cameron 2004-04-01 13:34:47)

Re: free energy from nature

Montalk - Thanks for these links.  And great article on the conservation of momentum.

This Finsrud Device looks fascinating. (images here and here, also, here but only small images seem to be available)  Something straight out of a sci-fi movie.  Mr. Reidar Finsrud sounds like an engaged individual, with a good balance of art, science, and natural intuitive observation.

From here:

This is an elegant and beautiful device, my hats off to Mr. Finsrud for his creation. Does any one have a clue as to how it works? First let me say that it is a true perpetum mobile in the truest sense, it will probably run for as long as we are alive or until the parts wear out.
Has anyone ever heard of a Schuyler Pendulum? If you've ever worked in the inertial guidance of the old time ballistic missiles you would know what a Schulyer Pendulum is. It serves as a frame of reference for all the gyros that steer a missile, at least before these systems were replaced by fiber optic systems.
To cut to the quick, a Schulyer Pendulum is a pendulum that is equivalent to a pendulum whose length is equal to the radius of the earth, and whose period is about 89 minutes. Its possible to "fool" a conventional pendulum into this period of oscillation by careful counterbalancing, so one doesn't need a 5000 mile cable. This Pendulum has a natural resonance with the rotational motion of the Earth, and is capable of absorbing part of the earths motion onto itself.
It appears that Mr. Finsrud has incorporated 3 of these pendulums into his device. all probably carefully phased by the rest of the mechanisms springs and levers. They rock the track that the ball travels on enough to insure continuing motion.

Any thoughts on this "schuyler pendulum" concept?

Of minimal note, the "free-energy" yahoo group 'moderators' easily dismiss the Finsrud device.

Have you built the device from your recent article, Montalk?

Re: free energy from nature

phlux wrote:

I am currently researching getting a bio-diesel vehicle, or possibly a TDI.

Phlux - what do you mean by "TDI"?

Re: free energy from nature

TDI - Turdo Diesel Injection, a much more efficient engine than the crap that mainstream vehicle companies sell you - it gets about ~45 miles per gallon.

Its just disgusting that hte car companies push out new models of cars every year, and try to lure buyers with better features and "enhancements" to the vehicles - but in reality there is no major innovation in the primary functioning of the car and its efficiency.

"It's hard to advance freedom in a country that has been strangled by tyranny." - G.W. Bush 04/13/2004

7 (edited by cameron 2004-04-01 14:41:23)

Re: free energy from nature

Agreed.  It is an ideal example of a system controlling demand and supply. Thanks for the info. smile

Re: free energy from nature

(I added the Menger magnet motor plans in my last post)

Any thoughts on this "schuyler pendulum" concept?

Tapping the earth's rotational energy would yield very little energy unless the coupling between device and earth were strong. The stronger the coupling, the more energy can be tapped. With a pendulum, the coupling is weak and any load placed upon energy derived would act to dampen the oscillation, as though it were under water which would make it lose its coupling with the earth's rotation. So although it may function as a perpetual motion machine, getting its energy from a mundane source like earth's rotation, I doubt the schulyer pendulum could achieve significant over-unity.

However, another question is what makes the earth spin? Can't just be rotational momentum left since it formed in the solar system. If something is powering it, then the same principle could be applied on a smaller scale. Getting right to the source, in other words.

Have you built the device from your recent article, Montalk?

No, don't have the tools at the moment unless the design can be simplifed. I seek the simplest and most efficient design possible, one that's easy to build and gives the greatest asymmetry between action and reaction. I added some device ideas at the end of the article today. The Gravitational Inertial Thruster by David Cowlishaw is very efficient, but perhaps it could be improved.

Thought about the possibility of a solid state device that alters the spin-orbit coupling of electrons for one half of their orbit and restores it for the other half. That would be an atomic version of the GIT. Not sure what can alter spin-orbit coupling...maybe electrostatic fields, which might partly explain the biefeld brown effect.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

Re: free energy from nature

(BTW, great addition to the article.)

montalk wrote:

However, another question is what makes the earth spin? Can't just be rotational momentum left since it formed in the solar system. If something is powering it, then the same principle could be applied on a smaller scale. Getting right to the source, in other words.

Apparently, Venus spins opposite to the rest of the planets.  This only lays claim to the concept of Venus as the "Wanderer" planet, coming in way after the solar system took shape.  Will Venus' spin change over time, more than the other planets?  Does it matter which way the planets go round, as far as keeping rotational momentum? 

They certainly due change rotational velocity over time, at least this would make sense as the solar system slowly expands or contracts (not to mention due to the appearance of large body interactions, like with Venus, or a series of comets, or the twin sun, or an arc-ship).

10 (edited by cameron 2004-04-16 13:54:12)

Re: free energy from nature

{i lied.  i'm experiencing 'pool-side posting'} ^_^ {please, try not to feel sorry for me... it's a shame I know.}

Moments ago, the Minato machine was slashdot'd.  {some interesting commentary from the slashdot community}

Here's some:
"It's been done with maglev trains by Lawrence Livermore National Labs using Halbrach arrays."
(from the above link:)http://www.llnl.gov/str/gifs/Post1.gif
"Heh, This guy will soon end up in the oil company holding cell with the guy trying to make a porcelain engine that runs on water."

"Heh, This guy will soon end up in the oil company holding cell with the guy trying to make a porcelain engine that runs on water ...down the hall from the vault containing the Skynet microchips from the future, all those Tesla inventions that the government has been sitting on, alien car motors from Roswell, turbines that run on Orgone energy, and real working cold fusion.
By the way, the porcelain engine with water? I've got one in my bathroom. It turns on when you flip a metal lever.

"The oil companies will hunt this man down, steal his patents, then dump his dismembered corpse into the ocean."

"Magnet power cars are a threat to national security."

"I could probably make a device that could take 16 watts in and generate 300 volt-amperes (AC) out - but the volt-amperes would be almost 90 degrees out of phase, and the power factor would be less than 5%. The real power out of the device would be substantially less than 16 watts. There is no way in physics to have more than 1 watt out per watt in, "magical magnets" or no. If the device was extracting energy from the magnets, they would be depleted and the device would run down after a while. That's 2nd semester physics, basic E&M.
Either the proponents of this device are complete incompetents, or they are complete frauds. I'm inclined to believe the latter, as incompetents tend not to have the sales skills evident in the article.

"Yes, I read the article. It has all the signs of something that needs justly debunking.
The 'no formal training' genius.
Power out > Power in
Use of the words 'over unity'
A tale of skepticism from scientists
Little guy vs. big guyes woes
Failing to identify the 'fundamental force of nature' that is being harnessed.

"I find magnetism fascinating for many reasons. Apparently, there are a wide number of interesting magnetic effects, dozens and dozens of them, of which many are very poorly understood. It is, I suppose, possible that some non-linearity in this assembly could lead to interesting effects.
In any case, I really posted this on the basis of the concept of the permanent magnet 'wearing out'. Has anyone ever heard of or seen such a thing? Yes, yes, I know, heat it up or hit it with a hammer or something... But seriously, it seems that magnetic phenomena like defying gravity don't really degrade with time.

"JOEL JOHNSON -- After reading the story about Kohei Minato's super-efficient motor, reader Chris Drake wrote in with this explanation:
All Minato's power calculations appear to be wrong (apparently it's a common mistake many scientists make); you can't measure input power using a multimeter when the current drain isn't constant. You can see his workshop in his videos - all his calculations are done using common multimeters and a desktop calculator.  Minato motors use an optical sensor to "switch on" the "stator" (electromagnet) for a fraction of each RPM, so he'd need an oscilloscope and some funky math to figure out how much current the motors are really sucking up (or a stopwatch; and wait for the driving battery to go dead, then estimate based on the battery capacity).  It's still a super neat idea though - which seems to boil down to "drive motors from the outside using aligned permanent magnets and momentary pulses from the stator" instead of the traditional "sick the stator in the middle" idea.

"As long as he's using a constant voltage supply, the average input power can be calculated from the average current, which is what a standard multimeter will show if the current is fluctuating quickly and periodically.
This statement is wrong several ways. First, you probably mean RMS ("root mean square") current, not "average current". The average current in an AC signal is of course typically zero. AC multimeters display RMS current and voltage.
Second, you cannot in general calculate average power from RMS (or average) voltage and current, even if the voltage happens to be constant and the current is somehow time-varying. The familiar P=VI formula is for instantaneous power, i.e. P(t)=V(t)*I(t). It happens that if the current and voltage are in phase (i.e. the load is purely resistive) then the average power is the product of the RMS voltage and current. This is a special case.
Third, it is not that hard to get even a good multimeter to read a time-varying current incorrectly. They are designed for low frequency signals. If your current is time varying with even moderately high frequency (e.g. >1000 Hz) most multimeters will not correctly read even the RMS current. A poor multimeter might not even give an accurate RMS current for a low-frequency but non-sinusoidal signal.
This is not the first time someone has produced a free energy device scam based on the faulty assumptions that P=VI holds for average values and a multimter always gives an accurate 'average' voltage or current, regardless of how complicated the waveform of the signal is.

"I explained that energy in a system worked like a bank account (bank guard -remember?) You put energy in and you can take it back out, but you can't get quite as much back out as you put in because there was a service charge in the form of friction. He begrudgingly understood. I complemented him on his nice drawings."

Also, Geek.com did an article on this Minato machine.

As with all places, slashdot is known for receiving a large quantity of "debunking" trolls.  Discernment is needed; especially with forums.

Re: free energy from nature

The Basement Mechanic's Guide to Testing Perpetual Motion Machines

Re: free energy from nature

From this website:

Raser Technologies has achieved a breakthrough in electric motor technology. The revolutionary new Symetronâ„¢ advanced motor technology delivers up to 3X more power from the same size motor, without compromising efficiency.

For electric vehicles this means more power , more economy and greater vehicle mileage. For industry , this can mean significant   savings in power consumption.

Not sure what the "Symetronâ„¢ advanced motor technology" is - but the pr department did a good job with this videosmile


Re: free energy from nature

I haven't investigated free energy much, but I came upon this site recently. It seems to be a major repository of free energy devices.   http://www.rexresearch.com/    Thought to pass it on here. My two pesos: I believe energy is inherent in all things and free energy is available everywhere (if you have the appropriate extraction method). I see it as the glue holding everything together. (I used to see this energy as Christ.) When the energy is released, the container is destroyed, like wood burning.                       "When fire burns, air dies."  -- Paul Roche

Re: free energy from nature

To Matthew (YesExistence), in response to the post you just wrote but deleted after I finished what I wrote below:

Your posts aren't gone, I put them into a PDF file here for you and others to retrieve. These posts were way off topic - this thread is about free energy technologies, not dadaism among other things. Compare the posts above with the posts I removed and placed in the PDF file.

Dadaism is defined as an entirely subjective artform whose only identifying trait is that it's devoid of any coherence, meaning, sense, or logic. This is how your posts come off. If, as you said, your posts contained "stuff there important to the human race, namely, oh, about everything (yawn)" then it will remain inaccessible if  barely anyone in the human race can understand what you're trying to say.

Members here have asked you to clarify yourself because they were confused by your posts - but you do not, either by not responding or by saying something equally as confusing in return. I have repeatedly asked you privately to present your ideas in a coherent manner for the sake of harmonious flow of discussion. You never respond to these requests, wait several days, then continue posting incoherent stuff. This goes back to when you first joined the YahooGrops version of this board. I asked you again and again, but alas nothing has changed. So this is my last request - if you keep this up then I must remove you from the group because as I emailed you on May 1st,

I wrote:

"You are interfering with the forum by being purposely vague and therefore harming rather than helping the discussion. Think of a harmonious song flowing along, then something with awkward melody and discordance intrudes and disrupts the rhythm. Do you seek to establish a discordance in the forum?

I can talk in language that some have trouble understanding, but I know exactly what I'm talking about and can therefore put it into plain language for them. How many times have I and others asked you to clarify? And you respond with further vagueries?  I have lost count. So it's not a matter of people simply not comprehending the messenger due to lack of patience or awareness, but rather fragmentation of the message itself.

If you or anyone have a problem with this, email me privately and we'll work it out.You are free to share your views - just present them coherently. If you write in your unique style as an artform, then please take it to the "Humor and Fun" thread. People are free to visit your website to learn more about your views: http://www.geocities.com/pvdimension/links

I intend for this thread to get back on topic...

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

15 (edited by YesExistance 2004-05-19 13:21:39)

Re: free energy from nature

I deleted some of my posts for the soul of posterity, there was also discussion about Artwork that I think to be not off topic.  Do you think you have the right?  Now, I'll try to speak better, first there was the light, only in this world it is darkness, mass.  In the other world that used to be energy, only now it has become metaphysics, it is the account of Genesis, and the longform of the soul (genetics), Time is in several different forms of 'karma', and this is how we are going to direct the soul to it's Artwork: Time, pure Time, and, obviously, fusion, and free energy are possibilities, only given the option of one or the other, you would have to go with the enlightenment.  This should be a check and balance to getting involved in overunity, magnetic backwash.  Please let me know how you feel about that, and if there are points that I left out, deliberately, or otherwise.:)

I'll look my notes over for us all.  Peace, bro.  Vague generalizations in regard to these matters, will be better addressed in an intelligent response, from now on.:)